Posted by: Benny Rhoads
01/01/2002, 16:40:48
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I just found this web site, and frankly, wish I had known about it before. I didn't know there were still so many others with an affection with the small calibres. I haven't seen much about the >17 Pee Wee. I have been shooting one since 1965, and have brought down plenty of game with it. I've also been shooting another wild cat that I conferred with P.O. Ackley on for a number of years. It surely has surprised other folks with the accuracy and speed. I named it the .17 Chuckbuster. I had Clymer grind the reamers. I fired the first round out of it in 1990. This Friday (4 Jan) I'm heading for Llano TX, for another Turkey hunt. It is very deadly out to 200 yards @ 4600 FPS. I'm looking forward to learning "NEW" stuff (We used to call it Dope, but not in these days..So Stuff will do)from you other shooters...Benny Rhoads
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Posted by: BIG GUN ®
01/01/2002, 19:36:18
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Benny, I'm not familiar with the 17 Pee Wee. What is it's parent case? I thought I knew all the 17 wildcats but I guess thats what you get for thinking. Sounds like that Chuckbuster would be quite a round also. Keep us all posted. Bill
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Posted by: John Mills
01/01/2002, 20:03:07
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The 17 Pee Wee uses the 30 Carbine as its parent case. Like Benny, I have been shooting 17's since the mid 60's but I don't recall the 17 Chuckbuster, maye he will come back in here and bring us up to date.
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Posted by: Benny Rhoads
01/01/2002, 21:06:05
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Bill, sorry I didn't give the parent round...The Pee Wee is on the .30 Carbine round...P.O. Akley and Bob Schutz (Olympic Arms, Olympia WA.) did alot of work on this round back in the late 50's-early 60's. Bob Schutz, built this rifle using the M1 Carbine and moved all the auto load action under the barrel and did several other things. It doesn't even look like the carbine anymore. With only one locking lug on the bolt, it's best to hold the pressure down to around 3900 Fps. I did shed a jacket in the barrel one time and not knowing that it had happened , touched off another round....It sure sounded funny going down the range . And then I looked and saw that the barrel had a swollen place in it. Ever see a rifle barrell that tried to blow out on you??? It looks scarey when you think about what could have happened. Anyway that was in the early '80's and I sent the rifle back to Bob and he rebarrelled it , and I'm still shooting it. The .17 Chuckbuster is of my own design along with some advice from P.O. Akley. I wrote to him numerous times back in the 60's and 70's about this round I was thinking about. It took quite a few years to get around to building it , and it was well worth the time. It's not the most effecient case to bullet round, but it works for me. The case is the .225 winchester case. I have blown it out a little and have had it up to 5450 Fps. Jacketed bullets tend to come apart shortly after leaving the barrell if you don't clean it after ever 3-4 rounds. I finally went to a solid bullet during the developement tests, just to see what it would do. One of my hunting buddies stayed pretty close when I was working up the loads. He would call several times a week just to check. When I told him that I had finally topped 5300 Fps, there was a long pause on the phone...He said thats over a mile a second ..Huh? I said, sure is...His response was Hell..won't do you no good, you can't see that far in a second....So there you go..
It shoots real good out to 200 yards up to around 4900 Fps. I have held 3 shot groups that you could cover with a dime. Best target yet is 10 shots at 100 yards that looks like one .30 cal shot. The barrel has had about 2000 rounds through it, and I took the gun to Shilen (Their Barrel)and had them bore scope it. It showed very little throat wear. Should be good for 10,000 rounds according to them, using it as I have been.
I have killed Chucks, crows, deer, Squirrels, Ducks, and my favorite...Turkeys, Infact, I'm heading out to West Texas this weekend for the last of Fall/Winter Turkey season here in Texas.
I've rambled enough...But I will be hanging around here from now on...Benny
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Posted by: BIG GUN ®
01/01/2002, 21:34:01
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Benny, Thanks for the info on the Chuckbuster. I have read somewhere about a 17 on the 225 case. Could posibly be in one of Ackley's books.
Was looking at Huntington Supply catalog and they do have reloading dies for the 17 PeeWee. Also on the Carbine they have the 17 Flea, 17 Keno, and 17 Carbine. I would asume that these are all about the same. You know I don't know why it is but all Wildcatters are trying to dream up a wildcat that no one else has. Mine is a 14 caliber on the Velo Dog Case. Ever heard of anyone else with this caliber? If so I'd appreciate any info, would save me a lot of hard Knocks. Later Bill
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Posted by: BIG GUN ®
01/01/2002, 22:03:21
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Benny, I knew I had read about your Chuckbuster before, and you got my couiousity up so I did some digging. In the Book
"Wildcat Cartridges" Volume 2 Page 20 by P.O. Ackley he talks about several 17's and the 17-225 is one of them. Also behold to my suprise there is an article about the 14 Jones ( 14 Velo Dog) Huuummmmmm
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Posted by: Benny Rhoads
01/01/2002, 22:48:50
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Bill,
My Dad confered with a Guy by the name of Walker back in the 60's and helped him put together a .14 cal on Carbine case, and built it up on a 600 Rem action. My Sister has the rifle now, but it hasn't been shot in 25 years probably. I have the Dies, so I know it hasn't been. My dad also played around with the Velo Dog also but I'll have to pull the note book on that one and get some info for you.
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Posted by: jim saubier
01/02/2002, 07:29:08
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Welcome to the board Benny, sounds like you have a truckload of experience with the .17's and I look forward to hearing more. Where do you get your copper solids from? Do you experience any pressure signs when using the solids. I have been told that you have to be real careful with them because they are harder than a jacketed bullet. I only have a few of them and haven't shot any. I did locate a source of them, but have a hard time getting a hold of him.
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Posted by: Benny Rhoads
01/02/2002, 11:54:00
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Jim, I wanted to send this response, as I am at work and right now, I can't remember the name of the solids Bullet maker. I still have 200 rounds that he sent me. I used a couple dozen for the "Speed Tests" and then slowed thinks down a bit and went back to hunting. I still have several hundred Sisk bullets, and I think he has been gone about 15 or 20 years. The best bullets were made by a guy in Cleveland, TX. He made 18 gr, 20 gr, 25 Gr, and 35 gr. All sere hollow points, and he put a very small speck of red Epoxy in the Hollow of the point. This was to slow down the expansion. It worked!!! I killed a wild goat in West Texas in the early 80's with the Pee Wee, With the 18 Gr bullet and it usually ran at 3900 fps. The bullet went in at the left shoulder. The goat fell on the right shoulder. When we rolled her over the right shoulder was almost completely severed from the body. I built the Chuckbuster to hunt Chucks in Penna. I'm a Yankee, but have lived in Texas most of my life. I'm kinda getting ahead of myself. The guy that made the "Good" bullets from Clevelland is in prison for life. Seems like he got in an altercation and the other guy died. I have only about 20 of his bullets left. I used the 20 gr to run the Chuckbuster at the 5400 Fps. His would stay together where the Remington would not. That was when I went to the Solids, because I didn't want to use up all of the Red Epoxied bullets. When I get home this evening, I'll send you the name of the Solids I've used. I did notice a slight pressure indication when I used them, but at 54 to 5500 kfps what do you blame it on??? The only indication I saw was the flattened primers and a couple of expanded primer pockets, and that was with 38 grains of 4350...Yeah I know ..WOW!!.
I have had a blast the last 40 years "Playing Around" with the .17's. I did't havae any idea that there was still this much activity. I have just been going hunting, doing my thing , and listening to all the Guy's talk about my BB gun's.
When I come back from this next hunting, I'll post some pictures on the site, if you will give me an Idea of how it's done. I have a digital camera so it should be easy. Thanks for the Welcome, and I'm looking forward to getting to know you Guys better....Benny
I'll send you an E-Mail, and that will give you my work E-mail Address. I can't ever remember what it is as it has changed about 3 times in the last year.
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Posted by: russ lucas ®
01/02/2002, 11:56:08
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Jim:
Where did you find someone to do solids? I have been looking for quite some time to find someone to do them. Have you heard a quote on the price, or know what they go for?
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Posted by: corbin shell
01/02/2002, 12:34:59
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Russ,
Warren Jenson at Lost River can makes losts of solids. He might be able to do a run of .14 cal stuff. He has a website. Go to Google and type in Lost River Ballistics.Corbin
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Posted by: jim saubier
01/02/2002, 13:54:06
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At last conversation with Bill Eichelberger, he had solids in .14 and .17 calibers. LOTS of them too. His price was very reasonable and I mean to buy a bunch. He is hard to reach and about the only way to communicate with him is snail mail - I guess but I haven't tried that yet. I may just send him a check for a sum of money and have him send me as many as he sees fit. These are machine turned on a screw machine (CNC).
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Posted by: Benny Rhoads
01/02/2002, 17:00:46
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Jim, The Guy I got the solids from was Bullberry Barrell Works. I can't find his name right now, but you probably know who it is. We conversed by mail for a while, but all those files are in a cabinet at my other place. The best bullets that I ever used were the Williams bullets, made by Bill williams. He owned Williams custom guns in Cleveland Texas. I'm sure there are bullets just as good or maybe even better, and since I have come across this sight, I plan to try some of the others.
Benny
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Posted by: jim saubier
01/03/2002, 08:00:23
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You are talking about Fred Smith from Bullberry. He hasn't been offering the solids for quite some time now. I do have a few of the solids from him but not enough to do anything with. He talked about having another batch of them made up at some point but hasn't pursued it further.
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Posted by: Glenn
01/03/2002, 09:14:11
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The .17 solids I have say R. M. Precision Laverkin Ut.
801-635-4656. I don't know if these are still avaliable, but it would be worth checkng out.
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Posted by: Nick B
01/05/2002, 21:54:02
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They say the Swift is hard on barrels at 4000 fps, but your .17 Chuckbuster must be MUCH worse at 4900-5300 fps. How could it possibly hold up to that many rounds before severe barrel erosion sets in? Most people would say you have to rebarrel a .220 Swift, 6-284, or 22-6mm after just 2000 rds. Please give more information on your barrel, please. Do you use moly at all, or any other barrel or bullet prep to extend barrel life? Thanks.
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Posted by: Benny Rhoads
01/07/2002, 10:16:03
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I just got back from the Turkey hunt...Got one bird..A Jake with a 3" beard. Only bearded bird I saw. To answer your post Nick, The barrel is one of Shilen's Stainless Barrels, noit sure of the alloy. Have you ever wore out a barrel on a "High Speed" gun. I haven't. But I've heard of people that say they have. I have a 220 Swift also, that probably has had several thousand rounds fired through it. When the .220 Swift first cameout, there was still Mercury Type primers on the market. I have a feeling that most of these Guns not cleaned right away, would tend to corrode, rather that erode on the throat area. I have a .22 that my Dad had when he was going to college back in the '20's. He would come home on the weekends, go hunting, and put off cleaning the gun till next time. After a year of this abuse....Well you should see the barrel in it. The primers used then, actually ate that barrel up. My 220 Swift still shoots as accurate as it did when new, which tells me if there is any wear, it isn't enough to worry about in my lifetime. Going back to the .17 Chuckbuster, the 10,000 round statement probably is stretching it a little. It was told to me as a Tongue in Cheek statement. But the boys at Shilen said there was no wear in the barrel and with 2000+ rounds, it should go 10,000.
P.O. Akley told me that unburned powder in a high speed barrel, tends to erode the "Throat" of the barrel as it comes out of the case just like a sand blaster. He said if I designed the case so that a line drawn in line with the shoulder angle intersected the barrel throat instead of the case neck, you probably would start eroding (wearing) the barrel. My neck and the shoulder angle protect the throat for about .125 of an inch. Shilen went along with this when I talked to them. If I ever do start to wear the throat, all I have to do is run the reamer in the chamber, cut another round of thread on the barrel, reset the head space and It's good for another 10,000 rounds. 10,000 rounds sounds alot for any barrel . But who knows. I would be glad to furnish the case detail if anyone is interested. Any barrel that is "Worn Out" is more than likely just the throat, unless it has been abused and not just used.
I hope I haven't stuck my neck out on this one, I'm just relaying what I have personally seen and done. I'm not a Gunsmith, and never would pretend to be one. I hold a very strong admiration, and respect for a real Gunsmith.
The solids that I have used, made by Fred Smith, are a lead/copper alloy...someone asked about this. I havn't had the barrel checked since using these rounds...I probably should just to see. Nick, I hope this has helped to answer your question.
Benny
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Posted by: BROOKS
01/08/2002, 09:54:15
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Hey Benny, hunted Llano myself before. Where do you live if you are heading out to West Texas? I live at Lake Fork, 80 miles east of Dallas. Love the 17's having presently a 17 squirrel, 2 each 17 Ack Hornets, a 17 HeBee and a 17 Ack Bee on order. If you are close we may can get together.
Brooks
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Posted by: Benny Rhoads
01/08/2002, 10:18:07
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Brooks, I live in Buna, about 40 miles north of Beaumont....30 miles south of Jasper. Fished Lake Fork, Caddo Lake. I have a bunch of Ham Radio Buddies in the same area. May go back to Llano for Spring Gobbler...Wanno go???? Benny
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Posted by: BROOKS
01/08/2002, 13:40:15
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Absolutely. Haven't been deer or turkey hunting in 10 years. Have tons of deer on my place but just don't have the desire to clean them. In fact the last dear and turkey I shot was this side of San Saba. Take a look at my kill from Thursday and Friday last week.
Thanks
Brooks 
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Posted by: Benny Rhoads
01/08/2002, 14:59:48
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Brooks, I don't have a definite date yet. I couldn't get your Image to come up...Anything special I need to do?? Benny
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Posted by: BROOKS
01/09/2002, 08:07:19
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yeh---please tell me how to post and image. I can't get anything to work. PhotoPoint is dead and the one Jim gave me (hunting-photos.com) has been giving "socket error" for the past two days.
Brooks
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Posted by: Benny Rhoads
01/09/2002, 12:03:34
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Ok, at least I know that it is not my fault. Just got in with this site, and wasn't sure of how it worked...If ykou need help getting rid of and cleaning those Deer, just let me know next year. Havn't got one yet with my Chuckbuster. I'll keep you posted on the hunt in Apr. If you don't mind send me your E-Maill and Phone number. Mine here at work is 409-886-6271 Benny
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| Tod Kindler 29gr BTHP , has anyone shot coyotes with this bullet ? |
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Posted by: Mark D
01/01/2002, 20:51:41
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I just ordered some of these from Tod to shoot in my 17BR , hoping they are as deadly on coyotes as the 30gr hammetts. Tod said he is working on a 29gr with a longer ogive , but waned to do some more testing before he started selling them. Thanks! Mark
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Posted by: Coyote Slayer ®
01/23/2002, 23:54:12
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I have used them on bouth Wolves and Coyotes with out any problems they knock a wolf off his feet out to about 300 to 400 yards and the same with coyotes I use them in a 17 VLR one great round that has been lost in all the hipe with the 20s well i hope this helps:Coyote Slayer Eat Moose 20,000 wolves can't be wrong
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Posted by: Dan C ®
01/25/2002, 10:42:12
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The 17 VLR was developed by Todd Kindler primarily to shoot the Berger VLD 37 gr. bullet. It is simply a 223 case necked to 17 with the shoulder pushed back slightly to form the 30 degree angle and increase the neck length. It is almost identical to the 20 Tactical if you are familiar with that one. Dan C
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Posted by: Doug Rumbaugh ®
01/25/2002, 19:46:32
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Thanks for the input. Although I have a .17 Remington and have read a bunch of old wildcat articles on the .17, I am not fluent in these little guys and know nothing about the .20s. I actually called and talked to Todd based on a referal about the 37 grain VLDs. I was considering making a wildcat by necking the RWS 5.6x50 Magnum down to .17. That would essentially be a .17 Remington Magnum since the case would be about as much larger than the .17 Remington as it is larger than the .17-222. Anyway, he basically said it would be a waste of case because the 37 grain VLD can be maxed out by his .17-223 wildcat. The bullet won't hold together at the higher velocities that the .17 Remington Magnum (my name) would generate. I think it would have a similar capacity to the .17 PPC but would work with an existing .17 Remington bolt face and action. I may build one anyway and see how fast I can push the 29 and 30 grain bullets. I would use a 1 in 9 twist instead of the 1 in 7 I was originally considering and it appears the magazine in my .17 Remington could handle the longer cartridge. There is, however, a little matter of having to have a custom reamer and custom dies made for a wildcat that I have never seen a reference for. I can't imagine no one has tried it but I can't find any information on it. If it were a total flop, the joke (and expense) would be on me.
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Posted by: Dan C ®
01/25/2002, 21:32:44
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Doug, coincidentally I just developed a 17 on the 223 case called the 17 Predator. Todd is right about the Berger 37, it is just too finicky to get to shoot with any kind of speed, much better to stick with the 29-30 grain slugs. You are on the right track! My new 17 is an improved case that is designed to get as much capacity as practical out of the 223 case, yet still feed reliably through a 700 action. The case holds 3.8 grains more water than the 17 Remington, and is very close to the 17 PPC in capacity. I have a 9 twist Lilja barrel ordered along with the reamer and other parts and expect to have it done in a few months. I plan on shooting Kindler 29's exclusively, and expect 4000-4100 fps. I understand Todd has designed a similar cartridge called the 17 Tactical. It is pretty close to mine, but I have a slightly larger shoulder diameter and longer body/shorter neck. In fact, Todd's is a reincarnation of the 17 VLR! Here is a pic of the 17 Predator next to a 17 Rem.........mail me if you would like to discuss this more! Dan C 
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Posted by: Coyote Slayer ®
01/25/2002, 22:00:14
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I went with a shillen 28 inch barrel and it has a 1 in 9 twist I did not like the idea of being stuck with only one bullet just in case they droped it from there line. As i said i really liked todds 29grs they took seven wolves the largest was 8foot 6 inches and went 117lbs and was a two year old and i took him at 400 yards I liked the 17Rem but on big wolves some times you needed to shoot them again with the VLR that has not happened I liked it so much i rechambered my other 17 rem for it also if you need any info please feal free to E mail me this is when i work the moast and i am home on R&R right now and will be gone again till the end of april the end of next week Have a great night: Coyote Slayer Eat Moose 20,000 wolves can't be wrong
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Posted by: Dan C ®
01/25/2002, 22:40:02
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What kind of speeds are you getting with the 29's, and what powders have you tried? I'm planning on testing Vihtavuori N-550 first and go from there. Wolves huh, that has to be a kick! And with a 17 too............... Dan C
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Posted by: Coyote Slayer ®
01/26/2002, 01:29:30
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I have tried Varget,Benchmark and AA2700, Benchmark by far is the cleanest and works well here where temps can go from the high 80 in summer to 60 bleow in the winter and it metters well,I have real good luck with AA 2700 also but it is hard to find here in Alaska. the loads I have come up with are 23gr of Benchmark and got 4000Fps twenty three Gr is on the high side Please be careful and work up for your owen rifle I would start at 21Gr and work up from there with Benchmark.I have used bouth the 30 gr burger and the 29grBT from the wood chuck den with AA 2700 I like 26.0gr with the 30 gr burger and a 29gr boattail it gives me about 3850 fps the 29 is a bit faster again please start from a lesser charge and work up. When i went with the VLR there was no loads for the 27, 28, 29 and 30 gr bullets so it was a lot of testing to get the right load for my rifle and the proof was in the one shot kills on wolves I talked to todd about the problem i had with the 17 Rem and we talked about the VLR I liked the look of the round as I owen a 224 Clark and it looked to me to be the little brother to the Clark well i hope this helps Have a great weekend. Coyote Slayer Eat Moose 20,000 wolves can't be wrong
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Posted by: Mark D
01/25/2002, 23:10:56
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Hey guys those 17's sound pretty neat! I finally recieved the 29gr Tod Kindler bullets and tried them out on a few coyotes they worked great . I shot one 39 lb coyote at about 200 yards , he dropped quick . My rifle is a 17 BR , the parent brass is 6BR , barrel is a PAC NOR 1 & 9 twist , 700 BDL action . It is the most fun gun that I have shot beside my 17AH . The velocity is 4100 fps with 29.5 grains of VV550 . I have not tried any loads much with this rifle # 2 , the VV550 seems to be very accurate with no signs of pressure . I use the Norma brass , the Lapua fits to tight in my chamber , I wish I had known that ther was a difference in brass , I would have made the reamer match . I had to change the Mag follower to get it to feed the BR cases , it seems to feed just fine now . Thanks! Mark
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Posted by: foxhunterbubba
01/27/2002, 18:55:21
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you didn't say what type of gun you redid the follower on . the reason i ask is i have a22 br that could be better feeding.
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Posted by: foxhunterbubba
01/27/2002, 18:56:38
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you didn't say what type of gun you redid the follower on . the reason i ask is i have a22 br that could be better feeding.
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Posted by: Mark D
01/27/2002, 21:19:51
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Sorry about that , The rifle is a 700 REM SA , I epoxyed a small bolt face mag. spacer to the back of the mag box . Then I replaced the follower with a small bolt face follower . The right way would have been to trim the old follower at the back and polish it . It works fine now so I'am going to leave it alone ! Hope this helps ! Mark
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