Posted by: Mike Brown ®
01/18/2002, 06:37:03
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Newbie Question: OK, I'm interested in the "17's" (like I need another firearms interest!). I think I'd like as versatile a 17 as possible within practical means. I'm thinking here in PA, a light-weight bolt action repeater (aka walking gun) in one of the mid-range 17 wildcats would be ideal. Here's my question to you guys with the experience - Which wildcat would be most ideal for up to 300 yd. shots at groundhogs, fox, coyote, etc. and still be able to be downloaded, with accuracy, for maybe squirrels (the tree type), pest control, etc. at maybe 50 yds. at something in the 22LR/22MAG power range/noise level? The posts on Blue Dot reduced loads got me to thinking about this. Am I asking too much? Also, what action would you suggest for this project? Anybody have such a gun for sale? Sorry so long a ?, like I said, newbie.
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Posted by: Rich in VA ®
01/18/2002, 11:50:48
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OK, I'll jump in here. I don't own but one 17, but it is a dandy. I would vote for the 17 Mach IV. You can boost them up to shoot 25 grainers at almost 4000 fps, or download some really light bullets with Blue Dot at about 2600 fps. If I was to choose another 17, it might be another Mach IV!!! My rifle is a Cooper 21 Varminter and the only down side I find to it is that the wood is too darn pretty to take into the woods, but I do it anyway......... Richard Jones
Rice, VA 
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Posted by: Nailman
01/18/2002, 11:56:55
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You might consider one of the new 17HMR's, I think a Marlin .17 is going to be fun to shoot.
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Posted by: Doug Rumbaugh ®
01/18/2002, 12:56:09
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I know I am going to take heat for this; however, I live in PA and I hunt the same groundhogs you are going after; pound for pound I think they are one of the toughest animals around. I have a Sako .17 Remington which is one of the bigger .17s (at least the biggest in production) and 300 yards is too far on groundhogs and I assume the same for fox and coyote. I do love the .17 Remington and consider it to be a very accurate and extremely fun gun to shoot. I shot a large number of the varmints last year with my .17 and out to about 250 yards, they just go to sleep. Beyond that, they can get away. I had a couple quick kills at 300 yards but they were head shots. I use Berger MEF 25 grain bullets @ 4050 fps. Maybe these are the wrong bullets for the job but I think 250 is the top end. The energy of these little .17s is not high to begin with and it drops off pretty fast. Ballistically, at 300 yards, the velocity is cut in half and the energy is down to 225 ft/lbs from 900 ft/lbs at the muzzle. As for which .17 to get, I don't have any experience beyond the .17 Remington; however, my next .17 is going to be a fast twist rig based on either the 5.6x50 Magnum, PPC cartridge so I can shoot the Berger 37 Grain VLDs near 4000 fps. I want to see how far that setup extends my range.
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Posted by: Drifter
01/18/2002, 14:29:15
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For me the 17 Mach IV is my favorite, the performance for that little case is unreal. Like someone said it can be loaded up near the performance of the 17 rem and loaded way down.Brass is easy to form, and needs little if any trimming between firings. It is a very accurate little round in the right gun, wich is most because they are all coustom these days, except for the coopers wich are great...but unfortunately single shot (I'd buy a repeater in a second) The 17 rem is a great one also, can be loaded full power to reach out to the 250-300 yd range or can be loaded way down as well. A production rifle like the rem 700 classic or 700 BDL is probably the cheepest way out at around $500 new . either way you can't go wrong.
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Posted by: Kurt Achenbach
01/18/2002, 11:49:44
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Al Nyhus, you started to say that the land width to groove width and number of grooves has a direct bearing on fouling, but didn't finish. Please explain. I've heard that they are a factor in barrel life, but I forget how. Please enlighten us.
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Posted by: jim saubier
01/18/2002, 15:46:57
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I have noticed that the 3 groove Lilja barrel that I have fouls very little. Look at it this way, the less lands, the less surface area contact between the bullet and the barrel. Also, I notice that copper fouling tends to collect in the corners where the lands meet the grooves. Less grooves, means less of those corners. In practice, I doubt that you could measure the difference in copper fouling between a 6 goove and a 3 groove.
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Posted by: Lt. Dan ®
01/18/2002, 15:02:32
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Thanks to everybody who gave me advice in the previous fireforming thread. Since I had already worked on 50 cases, it seemed reasonable to see what would happen if I used some WW 231 stuffed with some delaminated toilet paper and fired them. My guess of about 6 grains turned out to be pretty close, as 5.9 would often leave one side unformed, and 6.1 grains seemed to be about the max. The shoulders weren't very well defined after the first firing, and the second round completed the job. A lot of cases split in the process, and when all was said and done, there were 30 good cases left. The case mouths weren't all square, and trimming back to the OAL didn't remove enough brass to quite square them this time. I guess losing 20 beats pitching them all and going back to square one. At least I got to use the Redding trimmer and Hornady cutter for the first time. Annealing might be the answer to this disaster, but Rem brass has a rep for being softer than Win, and I was hoping this would be good enough. The next time I'll find out if my poor resizing was the cause. If not, then it'll be time to anneal. My next plan is to start working up some loads with IMR 4227 and Hornady 20 grain V-Max bullets. Does anybody have any guidelines for powder charges? The bbl is a ss 14" Bullberry. Boy, was that bore ever dirty. It took a lot of scrubbing with Butches and a brush got worn out in the process. After patches finally came through clean, a few with USP bore paste got their turn. Since this is a new bbl, I decided not to clean it first, as maybe the factory lube couldn't hurt anything while fireforming. I can only wonder how much more fun cleaning would've been if I had filled the cases with grits. The shorter pistol length Dewey rod was more of a pleasure than the rifle rod for the .17 Rem VSS. The Sinclair Contender rod guide worked great. Since I couldn't find one for a .17 Hornet, the one for .17 Rem that I turned down with a drill and file fit even better than the ones made for the right chamberings. My apology for the length. I just wanted update the other thread and ask for load advice. Thanks again. I've been learning an awful lot by lurking here. And your suggestions to correct my errors are appreciated. I'll never know it all, that's for sure. Dan
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Posted by: BIG GUN ®
01/18/2002, 15:33:16
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I use 13 grs of A 1680 behind the 20 gr Vmax in my Encore 20" barrel. Try the Winchester next time you will be a lot more happier. I went to Wyoming last July with 400 rounds and fireformed while hunting, Only lost 7 cases from split necks. Acuracy was very good, can hardly tell the difference between formed cases and cases being fireformed.
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Posted by: Lt. Dan ®
01/21/2002, 18:46:43
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It seems like virtually everybody uses 1680 and I just might have to join them. There's bound to be good reasoning behind the popularity. Thanks for your reply. Dan
Modified by Lt. Dan at Mon, Jan 21, 2002, 18:48:15
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Posted by: Cook
01/19/2002, 09:16:22
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Sorry for coming into some of these conversations late. Due to travel I'm an infrequent guest. Regarding the .17 Ackley Hornet. I wound up ff'ing 500 17 Ack Hornet for my Cooper and can't recall any issue with split necks. All were ff'ed in the field with 12.6 - 13 grain of 1680 and 20 grain Bergers. I don't know how you stub-barrel fans load but for accuracy in a full length barrel I've had pretty good luck with N 120 and about 12.4 grains with 20 grain Hornady V Max @ >3,750 fps. But 4227, 1680, N120 or maybe even Lil Gun should give you a good load. My records show that 1680 and N 120 will reach +3,950 fps in a full length barrel. If you feel like playing around why not try Berger's little 15 or 18 grain MEF's? I have been thinking hard (which for me hurts a bunch) about buying a CZ Prestige and converting to 22 K Hornet, taking my Ruger K Hornet and having Wessinger chamber that for the 17 Ack. The Ruger in 17 Ack could make a good 3600-3700 fps squirrel rifle. Good luck.
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Posted by: jim saubier
01/21/2002, 08:04:41
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Glad to have you stop by when you can. I wonder what kind of case life you will get if you launch 20 grain bullets at 3900 - 3950 from the ackley hornet. I was only getting 3900 from my .17 Hebee, granted it is a 20" barrel but the bee brass is much stronger than the hornet. I haven't seen anybody getting those kind of velocities from any length .17 Hornet barrel but would love to know more. I am amazed at the high velocites that I got with my little 10" contender barrel chambered in .17 Hornet (3200+ with a 20 grain starke). What length barrel is you Hebee? If I recall correctly, you were shooting it at a little higher velocity than my 20" Hebee.
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Posted by: foxhunterbubba
01/24/2002, 00:47:46
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jim
my 17 ah mirror cooks exactly,3850 to 3900 fps is the norm. with 20 gr hor vmx. The little 15 gr berger will do 4150 from a 21 in barrel.i shot a coyote with one just cause that was al i had. i shot him in the front sholder it blew a hole the size of a quarter all the way in to his chest. he fell over back wards dead. i have also shot 30 gr bergers at 3300 fps,they realy thump coyotes. groups usualy run in the .60 in range.foxhunter
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Posted by: foxhunterbubba
01/24/2002, 01:01:01
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jim sorry i forgot to answer your question about brass life.
about 10-12 reloads, you have to watch out for incepiant seperations if you full length resize the cases. i have a j d jones custom die since wessinger only uses sub spes reamers. i also use cci small pistol primers with much better results in the accuracy dept.foxhunter
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Posted by: jim saubier
01/24/2002, 07:21:26
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Any problem with primer piercing while using the pistol primers? Pretty amazing little cartridge, can't hardly believe the efficiency of 13 grains of powder.
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Posted by: foxhunterbubba
01/24/2002, 15:28:44
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jim
no problem with primer piercingat all. i had three people tell me to use small pistol primers in my hornet . dan cooper, the chief engineer for redding and wessinger. granted the hornet and the 17ah aren't identical the principal seems to be the same. the only problem i have ever had with punctured primers was with 6 1/2 rem in a 17 rem and a 223 foxhunter
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Posted by: Lt. Dan ®
01/21/2002, 18:53:22
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Thank you for the info.
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