Posted by: brian mercheant ®
02/01/2002, 04:46:58
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hi guys great mess board!! I'll be getting a plain Jane 700 .17 Rem. to cut my teeth on and I'm curious...when shooting 25 gr. around max published loads what velocity will I achieve and how many round of this will a new barrel tollerate b4 throating?? Also, what's a good round for throwing the (I believe it's 37 gr) heavy berger vld's? I'm thinking 3800+fps?? I'm totally new to this arena and any input will be greatly appreciated!
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Posted by: Buster ®
02/02/2002, 22:33:53
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I'm also new to the world of .17's. My goal in life is to see if I can put enough rounds down the tube of my .17 Remington BDL, or my Ruger .22-250 to "throat" either one of them. If I can, I'll be a happy man because that means I got to spend a lot of time doing what I love to do. I seriously doubt most people could put enough rounds down the tube to cause any serious damage, unless they're shooting long strings at prairie dogs etc.. and don't allow the barrel to cool. I would guess far more damage is done from improper cleaning methods. I've read where people claim accuracy drops off if they don't clean every 5-10 rounds. Others claim they can get 200-300 rounds before they notice any difference. I personally don't count rounds before cleaning, I simply clean after each shooting session. Sometimes it might be 10 rounds, the next time it might be 60. My way might not be the best way, but it works for me. I wen't out into the Utah desert today and shot a few jackrabbits with some handloaded 25 gr Hornady H.P.'s, talk about a mess. I don't have a chronograph, but the book lists just over 4000fps for the load I'm using. I think I'm going to work up a load using the 20 gr Vmax next. Do you plan to hunt with the .17? I'm itching to shoot a coyote or fox with mine. Good luck.
Modified by Buster at Sat, Feb 02, 2002, 22:37:37
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Posted by: brian mercheant ®
02/03/2002, 00:26:58
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Hi Buster, thanks for the reply. I plan on using it for 'post' style rabbit hunting from our hay loft, to domintate the whole farms site (S.W. MN)...also crows, pidgeons, starlings, etc. I use a 25MN and am used to having to take the head shots for the bunnies...I'm expecting much longer range capability with the 17. I been hoping that they make a good solid that would allow a body shot at animals too far out for head shots. I been reading and it appears that ...they don't??? Are the bergers not listed as MEF solids??
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Posted by: MikeP
02/03/2002, 08:02:54
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Hey, Brian, why do you want solids? It doesn't sound like you're interested in saving any hides, so why the need for solids? They tend to ricochet too much, no?
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Posted by: brian mercheant ®
02/03/2002, 16:38:15
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MikeP, I would use the solids for the same reason as with the WMR...for taking body shots on small game without blowing them up...when they're too for out to 'brain' them. As for ricochet, there's really out here that could get hit.
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Posted by: MikeP
02/03/2002, 18:00:40
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Brian: Thanks for the info. I live in an area that calls for fragmentation at first contact for safety purposes. You're a lucky man to live in the wide expanses where that's not a concern. I bet you'll have fun with those little .17s. Good shooting!
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Posted by: jim saubier
02/04/2002, 12:25:32
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I agree whole heartedly. If I wear out a barrel, I deserve a new one. And I am sure that I had fun shooting it. Most people will likely never wear out a barrel. My bore scope doesn't work for the .17's so I've never looked inside one. I have looked in some barrels that had a bunch of rounds through them. They can look pretty bad but still shoot well. The big difference is in the copper fouling, when they start to wear they get fire cracking in the region just ahead of the chamber. Just shoot it, enjoy it and look forward to the day when you earn a new barrel by wearing out one.
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Posted by: brian mercheant ®
02/04/2002, 15:12:09
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I understand. On new things it's easy to get cought up in the technical aspects and forget the main purpose 'ta have fun'. I know it must get tedious at tymes rehashing the same old questions with every newbie but I really appreciate the time and help! Thanks alot everyone!!
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Posted by: Doug Rumbaugh ®
02/01/2002, 13:56:57
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I am trying for form .17 Remington cases from 5.6x50 Magnum cases (because I want to try and fit the necks into a factory chamber and also see if this brass works better than Remington). I just got the magic forming die that Redding recommended but it is not what I expected. It is really Form Die #1 designed to form 223 into .17 Remington. I also have the .17 Rem Form and Trim die and the .17 Full Length sizing die. Now for the problem. To go from 5.6x50 Magnum, you have to push the shoulder back .25". After crumpling the body of a couple cases with form die #1, I decided to trim off most of the .25" before I started. That solved the crumple in the case body but I still get little crinkles/ripples in the newly formed case shoulder. Any ideas on how to prevent this. I am sure they will fire form out but I was wondering if it is indicative of something I am doing wrong (besides using the wrong dies) or is this typical of major case forming. Thanks.
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Posted by: jim saubier
02/01/2002, 14:19:23
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Kind of a double edge sword. You need to make sure that you are using enough lube to move the shoulder back and the excess lube causes these crinkles. It isn't a problem, since they will fireform out. You might want to make sure in your chamber that you are only pushing the shoulder back just as far as it needs. You may be pushing them back too far, check your chamber.
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Posted by: Doug Rumbaugh ®
02/01/2002, 14:46:18
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Thanks for the response. Actually, the bolt closes hard on the finished product so I think I may not be pushing it back quite far enough; although that tightness may be do to the neck/shoulder junction area. Because I am now forming most of the neck from what used to be shoulder, there is a big doughnut that prevents the sizing button from working. I am going to have to use my expansion mandrel and die and neck turn before I can do the final sizing. I was also told I should anneal before the final sizing.
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Posted by: Varmint Al ®
02/01/2002, 20:02:19
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Try polishing the ID of your dies with a polish like Flitz. It will not change the dimensions of the die, but will greatly reduce friction. Also to minimize the formation of the "oil dents", you can try forming in three stages. Try this with a couple of cases and see if it works. Add you lube and wipe almost all of it off. Then try forming only about 1/3 the distance to the shell holder. Lube again and wipe almost all the lube off and form to 2/3 the distance. Repeat the lube and wipe almost all of it off and form the final distance to the shell holder. I know this is a lot of work, but it has worked for me on some very difficult forming jobs, like forming 22-250 Brass from 243 Win brass, to get long necks. Polishing the ID of the dies is very very important.. Good Hunting from... Varmint Al
http://www.varmintal.com/ahunt.htm
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Posted by: Doug Rumbaugh ®
02/02/2002, 13:47:46
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Based on your comments and those of Jim I am now able to generate very nice looking cases; I don't know if this is the rule but I really have to use some muscle power to form them to push that shoulder back but there are no crinkles or wrinkles any more. I have a major doughnut I have to remove because the old neck/shoulder junction moves well up into the new neck. Also the new neck is pretty thick so my goal of fitting it to my chamber may just work. The bad news is that I cannot chamber the brass. I cannot push the shoulder back far enough to allow the bolt to close easily. Basically, there is around .005" of an inch difference in the shoulder as measured by the Stoney Point gauge when I size my .17 Remington brass and this newly formed brass. I suppose it has something to do with the position of the extractor groove in the two cases. Anyway, do I have any options here? My first and only thought is to grind down the top of the shell holder and remove enough material to be able to generate cases that will chamber. I would then use that case holder only when using this RWS brass. Everyone usually goes wild about dangerous headspace conditions etc. when someone talks about grinding the dies and/or shell holder but do I have a choice? I am not going to create a dangerously large headspace, I am simply trying to create one that is small enough to use. Any guidance would be appreciated. By the way, I have tried two shell holders. One by Redding and one by RCBS which are .001 different in thickness.
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Posted by: Varmint Al ®
02/02/2002, 20:37:35
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At this point, you have put a large amount of cold work into the brass and it is very hard. It probably has a yield stress of 45 to 55 ksi. With this high a yield stress, the spring-back when you remove it from the die is about twice what it would be if the shoulder/neck region were annealed to a yield stress of about 20 ksi. I would suggest annealing the necks and then try resizing them one more time. Also screw your FL die down so it is just about as hard to close your press on the empty die as it is when you form the brass. This puts no excessive load on the press because when you have the brass in the die that load is transferred to the brass instead of the shell holder. The combo of these two should allow you to chamber your brass. Also the annealed neck will be much easier to neck turn. You will have much less chance of the brass ID of the neck galling on the mandrel. Good Hunting from... Varmint Al
http://www.varmintal.com/ahunt.htm
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