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Posted by: Nick B 02/06/2002, 01:11:48 |
I was just reading on the Corbin bullet making website about using powdered tungsten in the core instead of lead. The effect was to produce a very heavy bullet with the same length as a standard lead/copper round. IE an 80-gr .224 with the same shape as a 55-gr, with the 80-gr stabilizing in a 1-12 twist. If I'm not mistaken, would this cause a big increase in BC of the bullet? Could this also be used in .14 and .17 bullets (producing a 36-gr .172 bullet with the same shape as a 25-gr lead/copper HP)? What kind of expansion would these powdered core rounds have? Could a bit of lead be mixed in at the nose to increase penetration for larger animals? Thanks |
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Posted by: russ lucas ® 02/07/2002, 12:03:15 Author Profile |
I have made some bullets with the tungsten powder, and it works extremely well. I stopped because you really need to make a special core swage die to make it into cores before putting it into the jacket. It's extremely fine powder, and it it were to get into the dies, it would ruin them. I was told that a binder is needed to make it into usable cores. I have not got back to experimenting with it yet, but what I did do was very encouraging. I filled some 15 grain jackets and shot them for accuracy and penetration. There was'nt much difference in the expansion between lead and the powder. They both shot through a 4x4. However, the best group I have ever shot with my rifle was with these bullets. Probably because of the increased BC as you mention, coupled with the extremely uniform core. (no possible air pockets, etc.) It's interesting to mention that I could not control the weight of these bullets within acceptable limits for lead, but they still shot well. I'm going to make the core swaging dies one of these days and get back to making some as it looked very promising. Seemed to be very devastating on gophers too.....more so than lead russ |
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| 5mm Remington CF conversion | | | |
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Posted by: Andrew ® 02/06/2002, 01:55:36 Author Profile |
Hi all. I'm sure this subject has been up a few times but I'm new hereabouts. I recently found a Remington 592M converted by Certec for about the cost of the conversion alone. I got a hold of Mike Craig at Certec and he pointed me here for advice or comment. I would like to hear from anyone who shoots this round. Thanks in advance. ~Andrew |
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Posted by: MikeP 02/06/2002, 17:51:13 |
Andrew: Sounds like you got a bargain. I just installed a 5mm Schroeder patented bolthead to convert my 5mm Remington to centerfire. I've already primed 50 rounds, using Schroeder cases, which are formed from .22 Hornet. Although I have not fired the little .20 yet, I have read a number of reports indicating good results from such a small case. I hope to achieve about 2000 to 2100 fps or so with 40 grain Schroeder spire/hollow point bullets, and maybe a little faster with the 33 grain Hornady V-Max. I have seen reports of up to 2600 fps with 30 grain bullets, but those are really hot loads that I won't try to achieve. Accuracy of less than an inch have been reported at 100 yards. If the weather will cooperate a bit and I get my "shooting" truck fixed, I'll bring by chronograph and loading setup to the range and see what I can do with it. I think I'll have a lot of fun. It will feel good to get the little Remington going again. |
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Posted by: Andrew ® 02/06/2002, 19:14:46 Author Profile |
Thanks Mike! I'll be interested in your report. It maybe a while yet before I get around to shooting mine (It's still en route!). What V-max bullets are you talking about? Does Hornady offer a .20 now? That would be great! Both Craig and Schroeder are a bit steep on the bullet prices. I e-mailed W. Berger and he says their 36 grn HP MEF has been labled as a poor performer in the 5mm CF. Ever hear anything otherwise??~Andrew |
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Posted by: MikeP 02/06/2002, 20:33:18 |
Andrew: Yep, Hornady has a .20 (5mm) 33-grain V-Max on the market. I ordered some directly from them about three weeks ago and haven't received them yet. A couple of days ago, I found Midsouth Shooters offering them a lot cheaper than Hornady-direct for about $14 or so per 100, so I ordered some from them too, but they are currently on backorder. So, it appears the initial supplies for this new offering are gone. Hopefully that indicates good market acceptance, which surely will mean more production and variety from Hornady and maybe other sources. I would think the V-Max at 33 grains may be an ideal combination for the little Remington case. Did I see that yours is a tube-magazine model? If it is, keep in mind that the pointed centerfire rounds should not be used in the magazine. If you do have a tube-fed model, I would think you could have one in the chamber and one in the magazine, for a two-shot repeater. I have the clip-model 591. However, I'm planning to single load, as I likely will produce a cartridge too long for the clip in order to seek maximum accuracy. I have heard it will be necessary to load the cartridges too long for my clip with some bullet designs. No problem, I'm in no hurry while shooting. I like one shot, one kill formulas. I think the 5mm centerfire will provide the flexibility that no rimfire ever could, including the .22 Mag and the upcoming .17 Hornady Mag. It should be a great little round out to 125 - 150 yards or so with fairly flat trajectories. I envision it to fit between the .22 Long Rifle and the .221 Fireball. At least, that's the niche I personally am looking to fill with this round. Good luck with your new gun. Hope you have fun.
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Posted by: Andrew ® 02/07/2002, 10:40:40 Author Profile |
Mike,
Thanks for the heads upon the V-max 20 cal. I will look into ordering them. I have ordered from Mid South in the past and will give them a shot, back order or no. Funny you should mention the tube magazine because when I contacted Mike Craig about this rifle the very first question I asked was about the "tube factor". He told me that they had determined a long tome ago that the recoil was negligible and unlikely to detonate the cartridges in the magazine. What they were concerned about was the likleyhood of a person dropping a loaded rifle and having the tube chain fire. I guess they ruined two 592M stocks by successive shock tests which culminated in dropping the rifle butt first off of a building so many times they shattered the stock to splinters. To add to the confidence, they had loaded primed cases with sand to add weight before seating the bullets. Now, the disclaimer is that I'm sure they were using HP's not wickedly pointed spitzers. I think I'd be apt to use the V-Max as a two shot, like you said, but I will use it as a repeater with HP's. I too look for the 5mm Craig to be a bridge. I love the 22WMR but it's performance at 150 yards is marginal; especially with the lighter bullets. This cartridge will have better down-range ballistics, I'm certain. And, unlike some of my other "varmint" rifles, this one will be a good walk-about rifle for the smaller game. Again, I look forward to hearing all about your initial tests.
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Posted by: MikeP 02/07/2002, 17:49:52 |
Andrew: Mike Craig's "test to destruction" in the tube-magazined 592 gives one some confidence than would otherwise be true. However, what I would question is, are different primers of different sensitivity? Are some bullets more pointed than others? Do some primers seat a bit higher than others? What happens if the priming cavity is not cleaned as well as it should and the primer is a bit high? Maybe no problem in any of these scenarios. However, I would think about that little point on that little primer every time I carried or shot the rifle. But then, I sometimes tend to worry too much. As I said, I tend to single load most of the time anyway, which does not tend to slow me down very much when I'm trying to catch the brass anyway. I think the little 5mmm will make a great carry-all-day gun. It's certainly light enough. And the reduced noise should do well in areas where noise can be an aggravating factor. I talked with your "neighbor" Steve Schroeder several times while making the conversion. He's a really nice guy, and very helpful. Let's compare notes in a few weeks as we get the guns going.
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Posted by: Andrew ® 02/11/2002, 19:54:51 Author Profile |
Mike: I hear you about catching brass! At these prices it would be sore misery to leave them in the brush. I agree about the destruction test. I think though, the recoil would ber a factor in the NON pointed bullets. I don't think this cartridge recoils much. I may have to figure that one out on paper. As I mentioned earlier, I ordered bullets from Mid South and they are indeed on back-order. Cabelas, on the other hand, has plenty for $14.29/bx. I ordered a few from them as well and they should arrive about the time the brass and dies get here. I am going to make a collet closer for the 5mm to adapt to a Lee Collet Die body tomorrow morning. Lee wouldn't make it, and a set of standard dies from them would be $160 made from scratch. I will let you know how it turns out. Indeed! I'd like to swop notes. I may not have my rifle until 1st week of April though. Look forward to hearing of your exploits. ~Andrew |
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Posted by: Andrew ® 02/21/2002, 03:12:54 Author Profile |
Mike: I found two other sources of the V-max 33 grn 5mm. First is Cabelas at $14.29/100 the next is Lock Stock and Barrel shooter's supply in Valentine, NE. They get $11.50/100 and both places have them in stock. Just an FYI. My dies and brass are enroute. Gun in two weeks. Can't wait.~Andrew |
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| 5mm Remington CF conversion - Link | | ||
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Posted by: D. Epperson ® 02/07/2002, 01:41:58 Author Profile |
Just a FYI, I just found this link, thought it maigh be useful here.
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Posted by: Andrew ® 02/07/2002, 10:44:41 Author Profile |
Mr. E.: Thanks for the link. The maker of this particular conversion is just over the hill (118 miles) from me in Dan Diego. I hear he does beautiful work!~Andrew |
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| .17 Javelina status report | | ||
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Posted by: jim saubier 02/06/2002, 08:17:33 |
I used the RCBS forming dies that were designed for the .17 Javelina case forming. I actually borrowed the dies from a friend, which I sure appreciated. There are 3 dies in the set and the forming was not a problem. A strong press is needed to form these cases and I had to use my RockChucker press to do the job. The resulting cases are definitely odd looking with a very long neck since the shoulder was pushed back and the neck was squeezed - both resulting in a lengthened neck. I'll post pics of the cases after each of the forming steps when I get a chance to snap some digital pics. I formed 200 cases which should be sufficient for the type of shooting/hunting that I'll likely experience with this gun. The big chore in the case forming is going to be trimming these things down to case length. I have to trim them back to the OAL before I can FL size them. I am ordering the Redding FL die soon but will use an in-line Wilson seater. I will probably have my Redding FL die sent off to have converted to a bushing neck sizing die also. Got a call from the gunsmith yesterday and he informed me that the gun is ready for pick-up. At 1 hour+ away, I'll have to get it next week some time. I had him cut the barrel to 23" as opposed to the 24" .17 Rem barrel that it was wearing. I had minimal truing work done to the action. I have a box of 30 grain Starkes to start me off, haven't picked a powder yet but will be doing so shortly - any suggestions appreciated. I ordered a neck turning mandrel last night for the K&M neck turner that I use since I didn't have one. I was using a different neck turner previously for my .17's and now have the K&M but no mandrel. Hopefully, I'll receive it next week. |
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Posted by: Al Nyhus ® 02/06/2002, 19:16:12 Author Profile |
Jim, in the FWIW dept, I used a Dremel tool with their fibreglass reinforced cutting wheels to trim the excess neck length from my formed Javelina cases. The standard Dremel cutoff wheels will only do about three cases before chipping, so the 'glass reinforced wheels are a money saver if you're doing that many cases.
I made up a small spacer that fits against the shoulder and extends to within .020 of the finished trim length. I slide this down to the shoulder, mark the neck with a scribe, Dremel off the excess, and then finish trimming to length in a normal manner. Good shootin'. -Al. |
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Posted by: Doug Rumbaugh ® 02/06/2002, 20:21:32 Author Profile |
I am doing some case forming and have to cut about .25" off my necks. I just throw it into my RCBS case trimmer can cut. What is the problem with doing this? Why use the dremmel tool? Thanks. |
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Posted by: jim saubier 02/07/2002, 09:30:26 |
Good idea AL, I may have to try something like that. I have to say that it is a lot of trimming using the Wilson trimmer. I have heard that they make a power adapter for the Wilson, but I don't yet have one. That may be another way. Either way, 200 cases need trimming and I'll need to get started. I'll have the gun next week and the dies as well. I got a Redding FL die and a Wilson in-line seater. I may have my FL die set up for neck bushings also. Or send a case or two to Harrell's and have him make me a die with the bushings. |
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| Jim...You DID get the carbide mandrel with Expandiron?!(nt) | | | |
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Posted by: Kevin Gullette ® 02/07/2002, 00:42:52 Author Profile |
nt |
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| Re: Jim...You DID get the carbide mandrel with Expandiron?!(nt) | | ||
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Posted by: jim saubier 02/07/2002, 08:01:29 |
Not sure what I got yet. I ordered it from Kinneman's and asked him to send me what he had. I really should have specified the carbide since it doesn't gall like the tool steel. I know that he hasn't shipped it yet, because he was waiting for a Holland concentricity guage to come in first. I'll give him a call and make sure that he sends a carbide mandrel and expaneriron. thanks. |
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Posted by: Dan C ® 02/07/2002, 10:18:12 Author Profile |
Jim, for trimming the Javelina cases I use the old fashioned method. While in the trim die, one well executed swipe with a 32 tpi hacksaw takes the neck right off. I can't imagine anything faster than that! It cleans right up after FL sizing and final trimming. For sizing, I use a Redding type S neck die in 221 Fireball with a 17 cal decapping assembly. I have two different length of decappers for this die and by running the die up or down as needed in my press can use it for all my .378" based cases. Works great and saves some bucks. Your plan of having Carstensen modify your FL die for bushings should work OK too, but make damn sure he does not remove any of the shoulder when he cuts it for the bushing. You really need the FL die for final forming and headspace adjustment. I don't care to FL size every time since most FL dies work the brass too much in the shoulder area. I know the BR guys like to do it now, but they have much better fitting dies than our off the shelf stuff! The only powders I've used are Viht N-135 and N-540, and Benchmark. If you're planning on shooting the 30's, I'd try to find some N-540 or N-140. I know Kindler likes H-4198 but MAN that stuff seems hot for heavy bullets in the Javelina. He uses that stuff in about everything he shoots, but I just haven't had very good luck with it. It is extrememly touchy when it is on the fast side for the case in question. Good shooting! Dan C |
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Posted by: jim saubier 02/07/2002, 10:51:12 |
Thanks for the powder information. I have some n135 to try and will have to get some H4895 which I heard is a good powder for this. According to Kevin Gullette, in the Sensational Seventeens manual - he highly recommends the 4895. As for dies, I would love to just have Lynwood Harrel craft me a die but need to get some cases fired in my chamber for him to do such a thing. I'll likely have him make a bushing die for this thing after I get going. I'll make some measurements using the Redding die to make sure that it isn't aggressively sizing my cases before I go to the trouble of getting a custom. I just don't like the standard dies with the expander button. Todd Kindler told me that with the Redding die, he took his expander button out and with the turned necks, got perfect neck tension without the button passing through the case mouth each time. Just putting a decapping pin in the die and sizing like that will be what I try first. I am really pleased with the size of this case, seems like it will be the perfect case capacity .17 for shooting the 30 grain bullets. It seems to fall between the Mach IV and the .l7 rem - maybe perfect for my intentions. |
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Posted by: Al Nyhus ® 02/07/2002, 20:59:17 Author Profile |
Dan, my Javelina works best with N135. Benchmark shows a lot of promise, but the groups with N135 are consistently better at all charge weights and temps. 19.9 gr. of N135 and a Berger 25 gr. (non-moly) gives 3950-3980 from my 24" Lilja 1:9 barrel. 4198 and N130 are both too fast for the 25's in my gun, but may work with the 20 gr. VMax's. Good shootin'. -Al. |
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| Javelina groups......... |  | | |
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Posted by: Dan C ® 02/07/2002, 23:26:18 Author Profile |
Al, these 3-shot groups were fired consecutively with increasing charges of N-540, and the Kindler 29 gr. boat tail, during load testing. The largest measures about .230", the others are in the low ones. No flags or any of that helpful stuff! I know, just 3 shots, but it's a good indicator to start out with. I need to test N-135 against Benchmark more thoroughly, and I will do that this spring. I'm going rockchuck hunting with a couple fellas in June, and the Cooper Javelina is going to be my primary rifle. I think I'll use N-540 and the 29's!! I actually haven't put many rounds through this rifle, don't want to wear it out shooting groups when I could be putting it to better use........ Dan C
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Posted by: corbin shell 02/08/2002, 07:17:20 |
Dan,
Where are the other 7 shots? Corbin |
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Posted by: Dan C ® 02/08/2002, 08:40:03 Author Profile |
Corbin, when I shoot 3-shot groups, I actually shoot 10 shots and tape over all but the best 3!! Dan C |
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Posted by: jim saubier 02/08/2002, 11:17:30 |
It doesn't matter to me how many shots are in a group if they look like that. My Javelina is intended to be a hunting gun and the first shot in every group is the one that will count. I sure hope that mine shoots as well as your does and I'll be sure to get some of that powder the next time I am at a supplier that carries the stuff. VihtaVouri is a pain in the butt to get around here. And I can't hardly afford to mail order powder or primers. |
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You guys crack me up !! (nt) |
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Posted by: Kevin Gullette ® 02/09/2002, 01:20:36 Author Profile |
nt |
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| Clip art needed for t-shirts | | ||
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Posted by: jim saubier 02/06/2002, 09:07:59 |
I would like to add some type of picture or image to the t-shirts. I have everything ready to go, but would like to have a picture of a rifle or something to put on the back of the shirt with the saying. It has to be black and white, and appropriate for a t-shirt. Your help appreciated. Once I firm up on the design, I should have them in 7 days time. |
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| 20gr V-Max | | ||
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Posted by: Jody Henkle ® 02/06/2002, 22:29:23 Author Profile |
This past weekend I had a 20gr V-Max exit a coyote shot thru the lungs about 3" behind the shoulder? What gives? I didn't think that this particular bullet would exit a blade of grass, let alone a coyote...... Little hole in, little hole out..Exit was dime size, or smaller. The range was close 40-50 yards and bullet was out of 17 ppc with a healthy dose of N540.... Thoughts? Thanks jh |
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Posted by: Doug Rumbaugh ® 02/06/2002, 22:51:14 Author Profile |
I cannot speak to the 20 grain VMax, however, I was told by a person at Nosler relating to their ballistic tip in another caliber that such bullets (ballistic tips) have a minimum and a maximum velocity for them to go ballistic. In my case, he said don't shoot at anything closer than 100 yards. If you are shooting a 20 grain VMax out of a .17 PPC at 50 yards, it may simply be going too fast to come apart. I can only imagine how fast that little thing must have been going since a .17 Remington moves them at 4200+ fps. In retrospect, I had used the 20 grain VMax in my .17 Remington once and shot a groundhog at about 75 yards. He got in his hole so I could not verify the damage but I stopped using that bullet. Every time I had shot one with the 25 grain hollow point, it dropped in its tracks. Maybe I had the same problem of the bullet going too fast and not coming apart. |
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| Doug | | ||
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Posted by: Jody Henkle ® 02/07/2002, 21:20:27 Author Profile |
Interesting concept with the min/max velocity. I understand the min, but the max is a little hard to grasp. Who knows, it may have merit. Your right about the speed. The chrony says high 47xx to low 48xx, depending how warm the barrel is getting and how much moly I let build in the bore.... I did see one this summer that went over the 49xx mark. I have logged every shot thru the bore. Does anyone have a prediction as to when the barrel will give it up???? I try to never let it get anything more that warm, and clean every 20ish shots. Shilen tube. That Vit N540 produce Big velocities, burns very clean too. Anyone know at what speed these v-maxes come apart in flight??? jh |
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Posted by: Dan C ® 02/06/2002, 23:29:23 Author Profile |
Jody, is there any possibility that the 'exit' wound was a bone fragment or something of that nature? You'd have to perform a quick field autopsy to find out, but that sounds more likely. Dan C |
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Posted by: Jody Henkle ® 02/07/2002, 21:04:57 Author Profile |
I had the same thought afterwards about the bone frag. I would have opened him up, but the dogs had fought with him in the middle of the creek, in a log jam for about 20-25 minutes and he was a MESS!!! I had mangaged to stay dry and mud free the whole day and didn't feel like changing that just before dark. Guess I'll have to center punch another one, huh? jh |
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Posted by: GoWyo! 02/07/2002, 00:38:27 |
Hey Jody, I had a similar situation happen to me last year except it was a young pup at about 100 yds with my .17 Rem. In my case with regards to Dan C there wasn't any bone hit (feat unto itself, if I was trying). It just zipped on thru both lungs. The coyote ran about 25 yds and piled up. P.S. what is the status on your friends .17 VSS and barrel exchange? My buddy has his for sale. Gary |
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Posted by: MarinePMI ® 02/07/2002, 09:51:32 Author Profile |
I guess I'll jump in with an observation. I've been using the 40gr VMax rounds in my .223. Out of all the rounds fired on game, about one out of fifteen fails. I'll be shooting gound squirrels at 100-150yds, with the load going somewhere around 3500fps. And sure enough, in a day of shooting I'll have three of four that just plain fail! Don't know why, but they just fail. Maybe there's a QC problem? It's one of those things that leaves you scratching your head...Squirrel's consistently blow up, then you get one with a little hole going in, and a little bit bigger hole going out. The only thing I can think is that the rounds just fail due to some manufacturing flaw. ANy one else got any another ideas? MarinePMI |
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| Gary.... |  | | |
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Posted by: Jody Henkle ® 02/07/2002, 20:56:11 Author Profile |
He is still waiting on Rem. No word since they said it would be late Feb before the barrels arrived. No telling how how many they will have to rebarrel, and how long it will take to do the work. I'm very disapointed in the Co that makes my favorite everyday rilfe! I used to brag them up, it getting harder and harder to do that... jh |
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Posted by: foxhunterbubba 02/09/2002, 22:13:47 |
jody had the same thing happen on jack rsabits at4100 fps punched a clean hole side to side. at 3850 massive damage was done. all shots were heart shots, those with a ide to side punch simply walked in circles and fell over.
i have shot several coyotes with my 17 ah at 3850 no exits just dead yodes. bob |
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