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Posted by: Tom Oddo ® 04/25/2002, 04:15:02 Author Profile |
To begin with, I have never annealed any cases before. An oldtimer told me of the way he does it and it made sense to me. Please comment and let me know what you guys think. He takes a lead pot that you use to mold bullet castings and I gets the pot full of hot lead. Then he holds the case by the head and dips its in oil or some release agent, holds it in the hot lead, not so long as to burn his fingertip and its done, one at a time. Then after it cools the lead will come off due to the release agent. He says this is foolproof. Please let me know what you all feel about this, or if there is an easier way. I'll probably be posting lots of questions here in the next few months as I'm trying to decide which "sweet seventeen" is right for me. I'm new to this board, my name is Tom, but my friends call me OD, Thank you and Good Shooting Modified by Tom Oddo at Thu, Apr 25, 2002, 04:15:45 |
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Posted by: jim saubier 04/25/2002, 08:07:21 |
That method should work and I've heard of others doing it that way. You must make sure that you have a spent primer in the case so that the solder doesn't enter the inside of the case - you won't get it out easily. Most lead pots like this run at 500F, so you would be getting just to the annealing temp. IF you already have this equipment, by all means give it a try. If not, you might be better off getting one of the annealing tips that attaches to a propane torch. Look in the articles section of this page at "Case Forming..." - there is a pic of the annealing tip. I use this method and it is fast and effective. Depending on what case you are trying to form, you may or may not need to anneal. SOME folks never anneal even with the wildcats that work the brass a lot. |
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Posted by: Tom Oddo ® 04/25/2002, 20:47:01 Author Profile |
Well I dont have that equipment, but I did read about it. I'm not sure what wildcat I'll be annealing, but it will be one of the sweet 17's. I think I'll get that special tip you were talking about. Thanks alot Jim, ODinOhi |
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Posted by: Chucker ® 04/29/2002, 19:55:17 Author Profile |
Any time you have molten lead around it can cause you problems, and is damn dangerous if your not careful it is not for the timid. Just go out and buy new brass. If you are to the point of having to anneal the brass its probably worn out anyway. Do you equipment and a favor and freashen up you brass it will probably make the rifle shoot better. Just my 2 cents.
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Posted by: jim saubier 04/30/2002, 09:13:55 |
A lot of folks use annealing to take the stress out of NEW wildcat cases that have been stressed from the forming operations. They have been necked down or up and then are going to get whacked in the chamber when the primer ignites the powder. I anneal most of my wildcats, mainly the ones that have to transform a lot to fit the chamber. After I have spent a lot of time forming cases, I want them to last as long as possible.  |
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| 17 Rem dies on e-bay, Wilson and Redding | | ||
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Posted by: JD ® 04/25/2002, 07:22:44 Author Profile |
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1824361394 I have nothing to do with this bid just pass on the info JD Modified by JD at Thu, Apr 25, 2002, 13:33:16 |
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Posted by: Jim in KS ® 04/25/2002, 19:36:42 Author Profile |
I'm having a problem with my .17 Rem keyholing using 25 grain Hornady bullets. The rifle is a 700 BDL that I bought new in December 01. It has had approx. 150 rounds though it and with the initial 30 rounds fired to sight it in, I didn't have any keyholing and was getting excellent groups. I clean the bore until I no longer get any blue on the patch. Now I am getting 1 keyhole in every 5 rounds. I use Varget and have varied development loads from 23.5 gr to 24.5 gr and get keyhoes with all of them. When I say keyhole they are hitting the 100 yd target completely sideways and all other shots are a perfect round hole. Does anybody have any ideas what my problem may be and would switching to 25gr Bergers or Starkes help. I do not experience this problem with 20gr Vmaxs and I get good groups with them. Jim |
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Posted by: Drifter 04/25/2002, 22:12:44 |
Maby try another box of bullets. That sounds strange, maby you have a bad batch , I've never herd of that , but ya never know. I was thinking the crown of the barrel may be damaged, but not if other bullets are shooting well. In my rem the 25 g starkes are the best shooters, followed closely by the hornadys. Hmmmm wierd. |
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Posted by: Jim in KS ® 04/26/2002, 18:50:42 Author Profile |
First I would like to thank everyone for their suggestions. I ordered 200 25 gr Starkes today and will see how they perform. If they also keyhole I can use them in the Mach 4. I'm sure that I am getting all of the copper out of the bore but using a magnifying glass I don't think the crown looks round (the old eyes are not what they used to be). It the Starkes don't solve my problem does anyone know where I can get a .17 cal. crowning tool? Again thanks to everyone for your suggestions. |
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Posted by: Chucker ® 04/28/2002, 15:30:34 Author Profile |
Search there catalog or web site see what you can find.
Good Luck, Your Friend, Chucker. |
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| The bore's still badly fouled! |  | | |
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Posted by: Kevin Gullette ® 04/26/2002, 00:35:16 Author Profile |
Jim, Clean the barrel with JB Bore Cleaner, per the instructions on the jar. Then duplicate the same cleaning with Flitz Metal Polish. The above assumes that you have already worn out at least two bronze bore brushes, while getting the "big stuff" out. Hope this helps. When in doubt.....Clean...Clean........and....CLEAN AGAIN! Friend Of The 17
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Posted by: Dave Corbin ® 05/16/2002, 14:34:39 Author Profile |
If you are having a persistent problem with fouling, you might try Corbin Benchrest Bore Cleaner. It isn't sold in stores, but for over 30 years we've made it for the Army, Wimbledon competitors, some for Camp Perry, lots of it for police departments around the country. It is a 15-micron synthetic sapphire crystal mixture with light oil, basically a parafine or kerosene oil. The way it works is, you apply a cloth patch around an undersized brush or a worn out .17 brush (we make .123 and .142 swage dies so we also make some tips for cleaning those bores, and you could use a .14 tip with a cloth wrapped for .17). The idea is to get a really snug fit so you can push two inches forward (from breech, is best) and pull 1 inch back, and keep doing that until the patch comes out the muzzle. It has to be snug. The reason is that the little flat sapphire crystals will pack together and try to take up as little room as they can under pressure, so most of them will be aligned parallel to the bore. That means their edges, the only place they can cut anything, will strike fouling or chatter marks that stick out from the bore, but will not dig into the bore. You get a lot less wear that way. We examined JB's under a microscope and found it to be about 40 micron size particles of what specs out as aluminum oxide, or natural alumina abrasive. The only problem is that this cuts in all directions, being more or less tetrahedral crystals. A micron is .001 mm so it is pretty small, and so flat plates of it tend to work their way under fouling and pry it off, rather than dig into the bore as a larger particle might that had cutting edges all around it. We make a synthetic sapphire bore lap compound that uses 40 micron size, for example. I don't recommend it for cleaning bores on a regular basis, but only as a 1-time bore conditioning when it is first put in service or if it gets really rusty (heaven forbid!). Hope that helps.
 Related link: Corbin Document Server |
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Posted by: Dave Corbin ® 05/16/2002, 14:34:46 Author Profile |
If you are having a persistent problem with fouling, you might try Corbin Benchrest Bore Cleaner. It isn't sold in stores, but for over 30 years we've made it for the Army, Wimbledon competitors, some for Camp Perry, lots of it for police departments around the country. It is a 15-micron synthetic sapphire crystal mixture with light oil, basically a parafine or kerosene oil. The way it works is, you apply a cloth patch around an undersized brush or a worn out .17 brush (we make .123 and .142 swage dies so we also make some tips for cleaning those bores, and you could use a .14 tip with a cloth wrapped for .17). The idea is to get a really snug fit so you can push two inches forward (from breech, is best) and pull 1 inch back, and keep doing that until the patch comes out the muzzle. It has to be snug. The reason is that the little flat sapphire crystals will pack together and try to take up as little room as they can under pressure, so most of them will be aligned parallel to the bore. That means their edges, the only place they can cut anything, will strike fouling or chatter marks that stick out from the bore, but will not dig into the bore. You get a lot less wear that way. We examined JB's under a microscope and found it to be about 40 micron size particles of what specs out as aluminum oxide, or natural alumina abrasive. The only problem is that this cuts in all directions, being more or less tetrahedral crystals. A micron is .001 mm so it is pretty small, and so flat plates of it tend to work their way under fouling and pry it off, rather than dig into the bore as a larger particle might that had cutting edges all around it. We make a synthetic sapphire bore lap compound that uses 40 micron size, for example. I don't recommend it for cleaning bores on a regular basis, but only as a 1-time bore conditioning when it is first put in service or if it gets really rusty (heaven forbid!). Hope that helps.
Related link: Corbin Document Server |
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Posted by: foxhunterbubba 04/26/2002, 01:27:07 |
the fisrt thing i would do is switch bullits,if that doesn't work switch powders. if the problem persist check the crown on the gun for a nick or burr. i have several 22 centerfires that will key hole a 45 gr hornaday hornet spitzer. heedless to say i don't shoot this bullit.
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Posted by: Chucker ® 04/26/2002, 11:14:38 Author Profile |
Intresting. The things which I have seen causing Key holes are: Fowling in the bore.
Good luck let us know what you find out.
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Posted by: plainsdrifter 04/27/2002, 23:40:12 |
Ive had that problem in the past.Pulled my hair out doing all the most proboble.In my case it turned out to be just a thin jacketed lot of bullets.Bought a new lot of same bullet an no more problems.I bought 3boxes of factory Rem loads and shot all of them consequetively prior to purchasing new lot and thats how problem was first discovered.You may wish to do the same if in a hurry to isolate bullets problem. |
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Posted by: plainsdrifter 04/27/2002, 23:49:29 |
Neglected to mention that oddly enough my problem bullet also happened to be a 25gr Hornady. |
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| where in kansas are you from jim | | ||
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Posted by: joebe ® 04/28/2002, 09:05:13 Author Profile |
i'm from ulysses and was wondering where you where from |
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Posted by: Jim in KS ® 04/30/2002, 19:35:46 Author Profile |
I live in Phillipsburg. How are your prairie dog populations down there? We have 6 small towns (the largest 80 acres)in the county all on private land. We normally use 22-250s but now are beginning to use a .17 Mach 4 and the .17 Remington. They work great. Thats if I can get it to stop keyholing. |
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| we got some | | ||
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Posted by: joebe ® 05/01/2002, 08:06:57 Author Profile |
we got some pd out here they baited a bunch and there not many left.well hope ya get your 17 to stop keyholing joebe |
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Posted by: Dan 04/29/2002, 11:57:20 |
Jim I just finished building a 17 rem on a sako short action
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Posted by: kevin gammon 05/11/2002, 11:04:05 |
i had this problem in my sako 17 rem a few years ago using hornady 25gr
soaked barrel with solvent for a few hours and then scrub it. am still using same load but havent had any more ketholes. |
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Posted by: kevin gammon 05/11/2002, 12:18:06 |
i mean keyholes |
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Posted by: Drifter 04/25/2002, 22:19:06 |
I am going to have a rifle rebarreled to a 17 rem or mach Iv, I was wondering who has done the best for you guys? I am thinking PacNor at this time. what is your choice , money vs performance? Thanks |
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| Lilja and Shilen get my money,and... | | | |
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Posted by: Matt Smith 04/26/2002, 10:48:35 |
Greg at Gre-Tan gets the rest of my money,I think he is a heck of a perfectionist.
Regards Matt |
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Posted by: Al Nyhus ® 04/26/2002, 22:36:54 Author Profile |
Matt, I take it the 1:7 Lilja .17 cal. barrel is working well for you? I remember we talked at length about it last year at the VHA deal. Take care, Matt. -Al. |
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Posted by: 17VLD 04/26/2002, 23:36:31 |
10 twist Shilen with the new 30grn Kindler Golds(.090 bt)out of the XP-100 17 ppc.I have been lucky with it,if the Lilja is'nt done in time for the jamboree I won't hesitate to shoot the Shilen.The Lilja will be wearing a Viper and a Shehane Tracker,I hope it does well for me and the "17 Brotherhood"
Al I understand Bill Shehane will be at the VHA jamboree this year,have you heard anything about that?Al I hope you are going this year again!I hope you will be shooting in the shootout too,perhaps a 30Warewolf with BIB's? Regards Matt |
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| VHA Shootoff & other stuff | | | |
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Posted by: Al Nyhus ® 04/28/2002, 19:58:15 Author Profile |
Matt, my plans are not set yet for this year's VHA Jamboree. I'm sure I'll be there for at least a day or so, but I've taken a new position at work and we're pretty short staffed through the Summer months. Also, all three (!) of our daughters are expecting babies(!!) with deliveries in May, June, and July(!!!). Throw in some BR matches and the weekends just evaporate. Stan is chambering up a new Lilja for my HBR gun in what we're calling the ".30 B-Ware". It's a radical departure from what is currently being used in HBR, and will push the edge more than just a little bit. As we used to say in Drag Racing, "We'll either be heroes or zeroes...not much in between those". Randy Robinett and I are working on one of the long time problems (weaknesses, to be more exact) with the .30 HBR guns, and are both taking a bit different approach to the issue. At some point, we need to quit theorizing and spend our money and time to test our theories if we have hopes of advancing, right? But I don't need to tell anyone like you that tinkers with the radical .17's that, do I? HaHaHaHa! Take care, Matt. Oh...remember the .17 Javelina I had at Pierre last Summer? It's for sale as a barrelled action if you know an interested party. Take care. -Al. |
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Posted by: 17VLD 04/28/2002, 23:53:21 |
Al,
You sure are a busy guy!I wish you luck with all your endeavors, especially the babies.I hope we get a chance to visit for at least a little while if you do get a chance to get to the jamboree.I do know an interested party for that 17 Javelina.... ..ME.I just mailed off way to much money to our government a couple weeks ago and am kinda Broke but if I can get some money up I'll contact you.I'm sure the rifle won't last long,but here's to hope. Regards Matt |
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| Thanks, Matt! | | ||
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Posted by: Al Nyhus ® 04/29/2002, 07:52:39 Author Profile |
One thing nice about being a young Grampa is that I'll have plenty of time and energy to get these young'uns exposed to the shooting sports! I'm already looking at .22's for them...my wife is getting quite a kick out of it. Matt, re: the Javelina. Drop me an email or call me @ (605)371-1900 and we can probably figure out something. -Al. |
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Posted by: JD ® 04/27/2002, 11:40:46 Author Profile |
I have 2 douglas and 3 Wilson and never had any problem at all Also have a Montana Rifleman 17 Cal barrel all work great JD |
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Posted by: redfeather 05/02/2002, 20:33:00 |
Drifter the Pac-Nor barrels are excellent barrels, and when I send one of my 17's for a new tube it will be a Pac-Nor because several of my varmint friends swear by them. |
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Posted by: foxhunterbubba 05/03/2002, 00:23:52 |
drifter the other day i saw al davidson (the davidson sleve) and a former top bench rest shooter. i ask hih that exact question, supprisedly i got an unexpected answer, he would not recomend any specific mfg. he said he had gotten good and bad from all of them. he is currently working with 6 obermeyer, he said they are the most consistant inside demintions he has ever seen. try pac-nor,lilja,k&p,virgin valley or mabye hs precision. bob |
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Posted by: foxhunterbubba 05/03/2002, 23:35:41 |
bob |
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