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Posted by: GeorgeS 05/05/2002, 10:25:50 |
A couple of weeks ago, I picked up a new LH Cooper Model 21 Varminter in .17 Mach IV. I mounted a Leupold 6.5x-20xAO/EFR in Talley rings and bases, and began the barrel break-in using Cooper's Varmint Extreme Ammo (25gr. Hornady JHP). Results so far are VERY encouraging. Here is a three-shot group I shot today (rounds 23-25 of barrel break-in). [IMG] http://www.hunting-pictures.com/members/GeorgeS/17MachIV.jpg[/IMG] The group measures .162" c-t-c! I cannot wait to start loading for it :D George Modified by GeorgeS at Sat, May 11, 2002, 21:06:06 |
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Posted by: MikeP 05/05/2002, 12:28:32 |
I received 400 Berger 36-grain .20 hollowpoints this week from the Woodchuck Den and loaded 50 into cases for my 5mm Remington Magnum converted-to-centerfire crow gun. While sighting-in the Bergers this morning at 85 yards, it didn't take any adjustments to my old K-12 Weaver because the little Remington was putting them in the same spot as it put the 40-grain Schroeder hollowpoints that I've been using. What a delight! I got three-shot groups as small as 0.3-inches at 85 yards this morning using the same portable camera tripod rest and folding-seat setup that I use for hunting crows in the field. This setup is not the steadiest of platforms by any means, especially with the relatively heavy lawyer-proof factory trigger on the Remington, but it's portable enought to bring the rig by foot to where the crows are. I'm using a compressed caseful of IMR 4227 in the little 5mm, which is getting around 1900 fps with the 36-grain Bergers. One of these days I'm going to try a little faster powder with the Bergers, but the 4227 is giving me very mild pressure signs, quite low noise levels and very good accuracy. So far, I've reloaded my cases five times with no signs of fatigue. Next week, I'm going after crows again with this little setup. I feel confident in taking them out to maybe 150 yards. I'm getting the accuracy to achieve this, but need more practice relative to trajectory factors with this gun. The predictability garnered by a Bushnell 400 lazer rangefinder helps make this possible. Even though it's a tiny case, the 5mm Remington Magnum should have been made into a centerfire from the start. It's perfect for shooting in areas that won't tolerate the noise of the big boomers. Well, better late than never. |
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Posted by: D. Epperson ® 05/05/2002, 13:47:52 Author Profile |
"One of these days I'm going to try a little faster powder with the Bergers, but the 4227 is giving me very mild pressure signs, quite low noise levels and very good accuracy" 4227 won't even reliably get bullets out of the 22" barrel of my little 22 Epperson Cricket, so a faster powder may work well for you. My fastest load (1850fps)in the small necked down 25ACP case is a full case (less than 3 grains) of 231 behind the 35gr V-max. The only time I have really seen pressure sign was when trying to use the Rem 45gr HP bullets. they really do NOT like being pushed through the 0.221 rimfire barrel. "Even though it's a tiny case, the 5mm Remington Magnum should have been made into a centerfire from the start. It's perfect for shooting in areas that won't tolerate the noise of the big boomers. " Definately a fun niche to play in. Good luck and good shooting. |
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Posted by: MikeP 05/05/2002, 16:03:27 |
Yea, I'm having fun with the little 5mm. Some people wouldn't want to fool around with a 2000 fps gun when it's so easy to get 4,000+ out of larger rounds. Certainly, high velocities and extended ranges have their place. I use a .220 Swift for that. The beauty of the little cases is to see what can be achieved with them within their design limitations. Getting more than 1000 shots from a pound of powder is interesting. It's a relaxed lifestyle. Sometimes, less is more. Using the little .25 auto case as a .22 rifle round sounds like an interesting pursuit. Good luck with it. It's that type of flexibility and the feeling of accomplishment that have attracted me to reloading these past 35 years. It's as much fun today as when I first started. On the other hand, I got bored with golf the first day out. |
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Posted by: Andrew ® 05/09/2002, 10:31:18 Author Profile |
Mike: I finally get to pick up my 5mm CF next week after an extra month's delay. Can't wait. Your evaluation of the Berger bullets is interesting as I was told by two sources that the bullets "didn't shoot" from the 5mmCF. (Mr. Berger was interested in some feedback on the subject if you care to drop him a note, BTW.) Anyhow, I have a question. What primer's do you use? I have yet to get my mitts on my rifle but I know from gleaning data that primer selection is all important as a velocity/pressure determiner...especially so in the 5mmCF. Hope you continue to have lots of fun. Hope to be joining the ranks by the end of the month. ~Andrew |
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Posted by: MikeP 05/09/2002, 18:27:04 |
Andrew: I'm very happy with the Berger 36-grain .20 hollowpoint which the factory calls an "MEF" bullet for Maximum Expansion Factor. So far I've only shot it on paper at 85 yards, but with a relatively unsteady tripod field rest and folding stool seat(a long way from a bench setup!), I achieved several groups in the 0.3-inch range, so they seem to shoot as well as I can possibly hold with this home-designed setup. One thing I'm doing is seating the bullet out much farther than the original factory 5mm rimfire's 1.28-inch overall length. Mine are seated out so that the overall length is 1.45 inches. Of course, this lengh cartridge will not fit my Remington 591 clip, but I like to single-feed anyway. It focuses the mind to know that it's one shot and then it's the bayonet. I tend to squeeze a little more carefully knowing that. At 1.45 inches, the 36-grain Bergers fit just right in the 5mm case, with the base of the bullet right at the shoulder-neck juncture. At that length and with that bullet, it looks like a minature 50-cal BMG round (maybe that's size envy talking, but it sure looks better than the .17 Hornady Magnum Rimfire or the original factory rounds for the 5mm, both of which beg for more bullet protruding out of the case, at least to my sense of proportional aesthetics.) Besides the looks, the longer overall length also give you more room for powder, which is needed for the slow stuff I'm using. As noted earlier, I'm currently packing the case with IMR 4227, which seems a pretty good selection given the relatively long 24-inch barrel on the Rem 591. The barrel on this gun is long enough to burn all of the relatively slow 4227. With my current load of 6.0 grains of 4227 compressed a bit, I'm getting about 1900 fps with the 36-grainer, which is about the same velocity as that actually achieved by the .22 Rimfire magnum I've seen published. That's good enought for me, especially with the accuracy I'm getting, the long case life (with five reloads so far, as noted before), no signs of pressure and low noise levels. Don't really need earplugs, but except for hunting, I use them anyway. Oh, my primers are Winchester Small Rifle. Good luck with your new Rem 592. Keep us posted. You'll probably want to experiment a bit with bullet lengths, etc. The only thing I did with my 591 was to sand down the inside of the forearm for a free floating barrel, then use a couple of pieces cut from a plastic 35mm film case to put a little upward pressure on the front end of the barrel. Don't know if it helps or not. I could do a bit more experimenting myself. |
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Posted by: Andrew ® 05/09/2002, 19:37:10 Author Profile |
Mike,
Thanks for the info. Point three inches at 85 yards from an improvised rest doesn't seem to beg much more attention in the accuracy department! I shoot a Marlin SSV 22WMR and your 36 grn Berger loads are moving just a tad slower than my chronographed Federal 40 gr, FMJ loadings at 1940 ft/sec. I doubt if game would know the difference! I have found a good supply of the Hornady V-max 33 grn bullets (Cabelas) and actually plan on making a stop collet for my lathe and turning part of the nose off. How much will depend on what I find when I get the 592 in hand. It will destroy the BC but at the speeds we're talking about it couldn't hurt. I understand the single feed philosophy: I have a SS bolt action 218 Bee that is my favorite small bore. Still, I would like to be able to feed from my 592. The tip-less v-max would make possible magazine woes moot point and hopefully allow feeding. I guess I'll see in a couple weeks. Have you ever (done) or considered, reworking your load with a magnum or BR primer? Or have you just settled on the Winchester?? Seems a BR primer might give your velocity a boost. I have read that with AA #9 it can boost speed (and pressures) a bit. I'm sure a total reworking of the load would be required. Anyway. You're my inspiration. I don't get to this board often but I really enjoy hearing about your 5mm! ~Andy Modified by Andrew at Thu, May 09, 2002, 19:39:29 |
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Posted by: MikeP 05/09/2002, 20:48:27 |
Andy: No, I haven't tried any primer in the 5mm but the Winchester small rifle, because I've got a thousand of them I need to use up. Before trying a different primer, my first inclination would be to use a faster powder for more speed at higher pressure. I've already used 2400 as an alternative, which shot well, but I've always had a loading philosophy of using the slowest-burning powders at relatively low pressure that provide good accuracy, even if it is at the expense of not attaining the highest possible velocity. Thus, my continued use of 4227. When I run into some, I'm going to try H-110 and/or Lil Gun, which seem to work well in the 5mm, along with the AA#9 that you mentioned. I'm definitely outside of conventional wisdom by using such a relatively slow power as 4227 in such a tiny case. But it works in my configuration. Ain't reloading fun? I suppose your plan to mill the point off the V-Max is to increase safety in loading them in the tubular magazine of the Rem 592. As I recall from past posts, Craig indicated to you that their testing has found no problems in using pointed bullets in the tubular 5mm magazine because of the minimal recoil. As I believe I noted in that thread, I would tend to worry about having pointed bullets in a tubular magazine. However, having said that, I wonder if the relatively soft synthetic point of the V-Max would significantly increase the safety factor? I would assume the plastic-type points would tend to "give" a bit compared with tough metal points, thus mitigating the risks of the point-on-primer configuration of the tubular magazine. Hummm, might be an advantage to use those plastic-tipped V-Maxes in that type of gun. Anyway, thanks for the kind words. I'm having fun with the diminutive 5mm. It certainly is relaxing to shoot compared with the larger centerfires. I've gone through a learning process in loading the little case. If you have any problems, I may be able to help. |
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Posted by: Andrew ® 05/11/2002, 00:21:39 Author Profile |
Mike,
When I spoke th Mr Craig it was noted that his tests hardly involved a bullet as "pointy" as the V-max. I myself would feel a bit better not having to worry about point to primer impact. My big concern is getting the OAL small enough to feed. If I can't, or if the accuracy is wrecked, I'll be shooting single shot until I can cut a bullet mold for the gun and make a swage for gaschecks. The I'll cast bullets and be done with it. I too load to the slower powders. I am interested in "lil Gun". Have you heard of any loadings for the 5mm?? ~Andy |
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Posted by: MikeP 05/11/2002, 06:10:54 |
Andy: You're certainly right. It would be advisable to not use the pointed bullets in the tubular magazine. It's crazy risking life and limb on a hobby. As far as overall cartridge length, Remington achieved the factory length of 1.28 inches with a 38-grain bullet. One thing that occurs to me is that the factory round was crimped, probably so that the 592's tubular magazine wouldn't push the bullets farther into the case (which also speaks to the point-on-primer discussion). The factory bullet had a crimping groove to allow the crimp. You may not be able to achieve a crimp with available .20 bullets today. Maybe Craig supplies bullets with crimping grooves? If you can't find any, you could mitigate the possibility of bullet set-back by not loading the magazine up to the limit, thus reducing the magazine spring pressure on the cartridges. It seems to me you should be able to make the 33-grain V-Max work. However, it probably has a sharper pointed angled shape than the factory Remingtons. This could mean it would have to be seated out in order for the neck to properly get a grip on it. You'll have to experiment to get the right combination. About Lil Gun: No, I haven't tried it, but it very well could be the best powder for the 5mm. I understand it's used in the .17 Hornady Magnum Rimfire; in fact, someone postulated that it made the .17 HMR's performance possible. It's also said to be very good in the Hornet. If I were just starting out and had to select one powder first for the 5mm, it would be Lil Gun. Unfortunately, I don't have gunstores in my area that carry a variety of powders, and ordering powder takes someone with an FFL and a minimum of ~$25 hazardous shipping fees. So, I'm using the powder I can get off the shelf locally. But I think Lil Gun would be an excellent choice. About cast bullets: Ask Nailman who posts here if he still has his Lee .20 molds that he had made for the 5mm Rem. He might be interested in selling you one. I discussed it with him a few months ago, but didn't pursue it any further. One problem is the lack of gas checks. However, if you can make your own with your machining tools, you would be in good shape if you cared to get into the bullet casting process. I have a Lyman mold for a 46-grain hollowpoint flatnose bullet in .22 caliber that I've used in .221 and .222 Contender pistols with gas checks. Years ago I shot a few armadillos using a load of 2400 with them at close range. As I recall, the Dillo shells on the other side of the entry wound looked like Humpty Dumpty after his Famous Fall. Ugly. |
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Posted by: D. Epperson ® 05/11/2002, 22:24:00 Author Profile |
As to the V-Max tip being able to set off rounds in a tubular magazine. Here's a test. Make a plastic firing pin (or a short firing pin with a V-Max tip)and install it in the bolt. IF it set's off the chambered round then you may have a valid concern, I don't think so, but that is admittedly conjecture. As to the crimping groove, I'm sure I've seen a canneluring tool somewhere which was supposed to work on just about any caliber, and allows you to place the groove anywher on the bearing surface that you wold like it. Might have been on the Cormin bullet swage site. |
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Posted by: Andrew ® 05/15/2002, 19:45:55 Author Profile |
Mike: Sorry I didn't get back to this post to see your response. I was derailed by your crow exploits. I found a pound of Lil Gun in L.A. so I'm set. All I need to do is get a starting load. I'll probably extrapolate it from a Hornet load. As to the V-max setting off the magazine. I would rather not risk it. Mike Craig has done repeated tests using his bullets as far as setting off the magazine and he says there is no danger. He wasn't using a chisel-tip like the V-max though. In fact, all of his concerns center around accidental droppage and not recoil. His recounting of dropping rifles off of the roof of his plant was quite interesting. He deliberately added weight to the cartridges by loading them with sand, under a bullet and over a live primer. He never had a tube-fire in a 592M. I don't think I'll worry about a crimp. ALL factory cartridges are crimped, I don't think they crimped the 5mm because of the tube. I think it is just common practice. As I doubt I'll ever carry more than one or two rounds in the magazine your good advice will be automatically put into implimentation. I will cut my own mold, no doubt. I have made molds for odd-ball rifles in the past and am well versed in the procedure. Gas checks might be a bit tougher but I'll get them done. When I do I'll peobably abandon jacketed bullets altogether. I shoot alot of cast bullets. My favorite 22CF loading is 22 grns of BLC-2 under a 55 grn RCBS heat treated bullet in my .222 Remington. It shoots about MOA at reasonable velocities. I have killed alot of prairiedogs with it and they didn't seem to know that they were being shot with a 2-cent bullet! Well. I am counting the days until I get the 5mm. Then we'll really have some talking to do, eh?
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Posted by: Nailman 05/16/2002, 10:45:30 |
I would be interested in getting a gas check bullet mould from you. Let me know, Nailman.... Nailman1760@juno.com |
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Posted by: Andrew ® 05/16/2002, 17:55:26 Author Profile |
Nailman: I'll let you know when I get one built. I have cast some 40 grain Lyman .224 bullets and will take some measurements from them, then scale to fit the 5mm. I'm hoping for something around 35 grains with a gascheck. The gascheck die will be a bit tougher than the mold. My hope is to anneal and rework Hornady 224 gaschecks. I envision them becoming a 1/3 bullet-length copper cup once sized down to .205 or .206"! How I end up making the gaschecks will determine what configuration I cut the mold to. Another method is to make a punch and die setup for forming them out of aluminum can material. There is an outfit that makes just such a tool for larger caliber and it works well. ("Free Chek", I believe) This is all a long way down the road but I will keep you abreast of the progress.~Andy |
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Posted by: MikeP 05/17/2002, 05:49:17 |
Andy: A Tip-Of-The-Hat to you for your self-sufficiency. Making one's own bullet molds and gas checks for noncommercial rounds is quite a feat, one that I admire. Wish I had that kind of skill. Heat-treated RCBS bullets...what is that? Do you subject lead bullets to a heat-treating process to gain some desirable property? Not familiar with the technique. Keep us posted with your 5mm progress. I'll bet that Lil Gun will be able to get those lead bullets up to the limits of and maybe beyond their ability to keep hold of the rifling. It may be the best all-around powder for the small 5mm. Good Luck, Andy! |
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Posted by: Andrew ® 05/19/2002, 18:46:29 Author Profile |
Mike: Yes, I heat treat lead bullets. It's a fairly common practice amongst the lead tossers. If you have a mix with as little as 5% Antimony it can be acomplished. I use 9:1 wheel-weight and Linotype for my mix. After sizing and gaschecking (but not lubing) I stand my bullets in a sheet metal rack and bake them in an oven at 460 degrees for an hour. (This time can be adjusted per caliber; my .225 bullets take about 30 minutes.) After the hour I quench the bullets in a tub full of room temp water. I then spread the bullets out on a paper towel to dry overnight. The next day I lube in the same die I sized them in. The advantage is that bullets of this mix come out with a BHN hardness of around 30BHN which is about half again as hard as linotype.(approx 20 BHN) Since educated cast bullet shooters know that excessive pressure, not velocity, causes leading you gain quite an edge on non heattreated bullets -or even pure linotype. (a poor choice of metal for bullets in itself) My key to making good lead loads is to choose my powder by pressures generated. If I can keep the pressures with these bullets under 40K then I can be relatively sure the bullets won't "go plastic" on me an lead the barrel. (Accuracy is another matter, but NOT leading is a good start when searching for an accurate load.) The loads I end up with are usually not the top speed for the cartridge, and certainly not the most effecient, but they are usually accurate. My 22-250 loads are with 35 grains of H-4831 @ 2700 fps, chronographed, with a 58 grain bullet. The pressures are listed well under 36KCUP and the accuracy is 1.3MOA -Not bench rest but coyote worthy. When it comes to mold making. I'm no expert but Necessity is the Mother of Invention... ~Andy |
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Posted by: MikeP 05/20/2002, 09:34:22 |
Andy: Thanks for the info. Very interesting! I haven't loaded lead bullets for the past 20 years, but plan to do so again some day. I've got molds for a 170-grain .30 flatnose hollowpoint (used back then in a 30-30) and a 46-grain .22 flatnose hollowpoint (used in a .221 and .222). I had not heard of the heat-treatment technique. I was using straight linotype at max velocities of maybe 2000 fps with gaschecks. Still have a bar of some 20 pounds or so I got from a printer who no longer had a linotype-setting machine. Maybe I'll be bakin' me some bullets in the future. So many pursuits...so little time. Good Luck with your recipes for the 5mm! Mike |
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Posted by: foxhunterbubba 05/05/2002, 21:57:03 |
i had a friend tell me that putting live amo in a viberator will grind up the powder and make the powder burning rate faster any one know or have an openion????????????? |
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Posted by: Dan Golding ® 05/05/2002, 22:38:16 Author Profile |
Place a few grains of cylindrical powder between thumb and
finger - roll it against each other for a couple of minutes and see what happens to it. Or better yet, just believe your friend, for he is a friend with good advice! |
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Posted by: foxhunterbubba 05/06/2002, 01:46:23 |
i never doughted his advise for a second, the actual conversation was as we drove down a wash board road and our ammo was shaking violently by the road and vehicle. the vibrator tumbler was a side note. thats when he said it was not good to vibrate the ammo like that. so my real question should have been about the vehicle shaking the boxes of ammo and changing the powders burning rate. thanks bob |
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Posted by: JD ® 05/06/2002, 05:49:27 Author Profile |
You should try not to break down powder in any way, to change the make up of the grains could be VERY bad, they put coatings and everything on them to affect the burn rate, to change that a little could be allot more then you hoped for As for bouncing down a road, you would pack the powder down more then anything, then no room to rattle to break it down, My thoughts on the subject JD |
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Posted by: corbin shell 05/06/2002, 10:12:08 |
An interesting test would be to mark seveal reloads and place them in a tumbler. Remove each case one hour apart with a total of about 5 or 6 cases. Tear down each round and observe the powder structure in increments of 1 hour. Interested to know the results. I would do it myself but do not own a tumbler. Corbin Shell |
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