Posted by: MikeP
05/10/2002, 19:58:44
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It was hot this Friday afternoon, around 90, but I decided to get a head start on the weekend with my 5mm Remington centerfire. So I played hookie from the saltmine and headed for the woods. After parking the truck, I set up a target on a tree using the ole hammer-and-nail technique, and at 100 yards the little gun put several rounds in the bullseye from a cold barrel (if a barrel can be cold at 90 degrees ambient). No adjustments necessary to the 12X Weaver. I haven't done much range testing with the Remington 591, but it's zeroed at about 85 yards, and the drop at 100 was negligible. That's good enough for crow's work, and it was too hot for more testing anyway. So I packed my little tripod-and-folding chair rig deeper into the woods and worked my way where there was some crow activity. As luck would have it, after a bit of a sweaty wait, I was presented a target at a lasered 108 yards. I put the crosshairs on his head, and the little 36-grain .20 caliber Berger dotted his eye with a most impressive effect. If I liked to eat crow, I would've had supper supplied. Yep, I like the mild little 5mm Remington. Should have been made a centerfire all along.
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Posted by: Andrew ®
05/11/2002, 00:14:50
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Yee-haw, Buddy! Nice work! I have heard that the 5mm would have succeeded as a CF round. You could be right. Seventeen days until I have mine.~Andy
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Posted by: MikeP
05/11/2002, 05:14:16
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Andy: I hope you have as much fun as I've been having with the tiny 5mm. I'm up before daybreak today (Saturday) heading for Crowtown Woods to enjoy some of the "cooler" air at sunrise. It's only 72 degrees right now at 4 a.m. Central. It'll be 90 by noon. In case I can't find feathers, I'll be bringing targets of paper to make sure my Rem 591 holepuncher doesn't get frustrated. After all, it's been sitting in the closet for 20 years with nothing to eat until I discovered the centerfire conversion technology. One way or the other, the .20 Bergers will be flying early this morning.
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Posted by: MikeP
05/11/2002, 10:15:12
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Well, Andy, I didn't get a shot at any crows this Saturday morning. It probably was not a good idea to go to the same spot two days in a row. Those guys are smart! However, I did get good results with my paper targets. Below are the results of two, three-shot groups at a laser-measured 139 yards in some open pine woods, using the home-designed camera tripod rest and folding stool setup I have assembled for field hunting. Shooting this way, I hold the gun without the use of any bags, and simply rest my arms on top of a small wooden platform I have attached to the light tripod. With a compressed load of 6.0 grains of IMR 4227 and the 36-grain .20 caliber Berger hollowpoint, I recorded the following with the Rem 591 5mm measuring center-to-center this morning: Group 1: 0.7 inches, two bullets touching Group 2: 1.4 inches, two bullets about 1/16-inch apart. Sighted in at about 85 yards, the bullets were about 3.5 inches low at 139 yards. With a laser rangefinder, it is pretty easy to compensate for the drop once you've figured out what that drop will be at any given distance. I'll need to do some more testing for the drop factors at more distances. One disadvantage of the little round is that it's not nearly as flat shooting as the larger centerfires, but the laser rangefinder really mitigates that problem compared with the old days of estimating distances. I never could estimate distances. Now I've got nine volts of measuring power doing it for me. HOORAY. I think I'll use this load for a while. Don't know if I could get much better for use hunting in the field. Even if I did, I'd have to practice too much to take advantage of it.
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Posted by: foxhunterbubba
05/11/2002, 12:42:58
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mike p are you trying to call crows or sneak up on them?
if your not calling them you should try it ,use a owl decoy .bob
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Posted by: MikeP
05/11/2002, 15:31:22
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Bob: My usual mode is to get up on them in the woods by carefully approaching clearings or rights-of-way when and where they are active. There are a lot of crows in my area. Finding some carrion sometimes helps. I have called them on occasion with a decoy, which is much more productive especially, of course, with a shotgun. However, I usually go for rifle targets of opportunity where I find them. Since I'm having to travel a half-mile or so by foot, I try to keep my equipment list down, especially since I bring my own tripod "bench". The light Rem 591 will help keep the weight down, as does the little Rem Model 600 222 or the XP100 221. I probably should bring an owl decoy, too, and try to get them to land. The decoy doesn't weigh much, but adds to the bulk. Maybe next trip.
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Posted by: foxhunterbubba
05/11/2002, 19:28:32
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what we have are called ravens and jail time if you get caught shooting one. bob
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Posted by: MikeP
05/11/2002, 20:10:17
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Bob, it's apparent you don't have as many raven as we have crows. Otherwise, you should get a bounty payment instead of bail request for shooting one. I look at the crow as a worthy target. They are intelligent, cautious, alert and present a pretty small target at anything over 75 yards or so. For me, that's the thrill.
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Posted by: foxhunterbubba
05/11/2002, 22:39:14
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we have plenty of ravens , its that stupid treaty we got our selves into with the slick cats down in mexico. after all we have the best politicians and negotiators money can buy. bob
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Posted by: MikeP
05/12/2002, 09:02:48
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Bob, that's too bad. I think the term "Raven Rifle" has a nice ring to it, like the old British term for varminters: "Rook Rifle." The rook is a crow-like European bird not unlike the raven. It's probably illegal to shoot them over there by now. Probably illegal to shoot, period. Oh, well, enjoy what you can hunt today, because future generations will probably have to satisfy themselves on virtual hunting video games. Then there will be virtual shooting, and virtual reloading, and we'll be able to get virtual velocities of 5000, 10,000, 20,000 fps, and get groups of 0.00" at 1000 yards or maybe miles...well, the possibilities are limitless. I've got a headache. One more cup of Irish coffee and I'll be OK.
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Posted by: MarinePMI ®
05/14/2002, 02:05:13
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Actually I'm over here in the UK now, and hunting is still legal, just hard to get into with all the restrictions, and permissions needed to hunt the privately owned land. The local base Wing Commander is an avid hunter, but alas, most of his hunts have been out of the country on "safari".
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Posted by: Andrew ®
05/14/2002, 03:13:12
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Mike: Wiley birds indeed! Nice grouping! Two weeks until I grab by 592. (You guys will get sick of the countdown, so I'll quit it there!) I am heading for Yuma AZ tomorrow, the nearest big city, and will try to look up some Lil Gun. Hope to give it a try. Might call The maker for loading suggestions. Got that collet half made for turning the noses off the V-max. I guess I'll have to call them "V-Min"'s!~Andy
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Posted by: Andrew ®
06/01/2002, 02:13:49
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Mike: I finally retrieved the 592M from New Mexico. Found a store with lots of reloading equipment but only a single pound of "Lil Gun". While there I picked up Hodgons freebie book and noted the 22 Hornet loadings for this powder. Always hi velocity with the lowest chamber pressures. Could be a good powder, indeed. I work for the next two days and than I will head for the range with the 5mm. Have you noticed that these rifles seem to be "free-bored"?? When the bullet is kissing the leade it is far too long to feed. (And,I'd imagine, fit in the detachable magazine.) I wonder if this is how Remington kept the pressures down, ala, Weatherby?? If you hear of any 5mm loads for Lil Gun drop me a note. I'll let you know how I do at the range..... ~Andy
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Posted by: MikeP
06/01/2002, 13:18:48
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Andy: For some reason, an old post got "updated" here. That old "Crow's Eye" dotted by the 5mm is still on me. Glad to hear you got the 5mm. I'll bet you'll have fun working up some loads. I have not tried to measure my 591's free bore, but because I intended to single-load my 591 anyway, I started out with much longer than factory rounds using 36-to-40-grain .20s. It is possible all the 5mm's were free-bored a bit to help reduce initial pressure, especially if some relatively fast powder was used. I don't know what powder the factory used. As discussed before, I would assume Lil Gun would work extremely well in the 5mm. Interestingly, a thread today on this forum is discussing a phenomenom with Lil Gun that I had never heard of before. You'll probably find it interesting. I have not seen any Lil Gun loads for the 5mm, and since I have no Lil Gun myself, I can't say. However, it has been widely reported that the .17 HMR uses Lil Gun, including an assertion I read somewhere that Lil Gun was the only powder allowing the high velocity developed by the .17 HMR. If the .17 HMR does use Lil Gun, and if another report I saw was accurate, then I can report that the HMR uses 5.4 grains of Lil Gun. The report of 5.4 grains came from a shooter who took apart a couple of .17 HMRs. He also reported the .17 Hornady V-Max weighed 16.7 grains. It sounded pretty authoritative. The only two powders I've used so far in the 5mm is H-2400 (I've used up to 5 grains) and IMR 4227 (I've used up to 6 grains, a compressed charge) for both 36 and 40 grainers. Both have shot well for me. I'm currently settled on the 36-grain Berger with 6 grains of IMR 4227. The accuracy is excellent, and although a faster powder would probably get better than the 1900 fps it generates, I'm satisfied with the results so far. I've gotten six reloads on one set of cases so far with no signs of fatigue yet. Keep us apprised of your results, and Good Luck.
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Posted by: Andrew ®
06/01/2002, 14:25:27
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Mike; I read the posting on the Lil Gun. The powder is definitely a strange one! Hodgon lists the powder as having a SLOWER buring rate than 4227 or H110. (4227, H110, Lilgun, 4198...in that order.) My guess about the K-Hornet results is that the shooter needs to go to a small rifle primer, at least. Your guess about ignition problems seems right on the money with me. Thanks for the info on the 17HMR loads. I will compare that to my results when I start measuring bore and case capacities for extrapolating 5mm loads from Hornet loadings of Lil Gun. I was entertaining the thought of using the 5mm starting load for 4227, figuring that using a slower powder couldn't hurt, but I think I'll be a bit more scientific! I wil be shooting Monday and will let you in on my results. ~Andy
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Posted by: MikeP
06/01/2002, 15:13:57
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Andrew: I'm surprised that Hodgdon lists Lil Gun slower than 4227. The burn-rate lists I've seen rate Lil Gun about the same as H110 but slower than 4227 (either IMR or Hodgdon). The only way I'm able to get 6 grains of IMR 4227 into the 5mm case is to produce an overall cartridge length significantly longer than factory. The powder reaches into the neck maybe a quarter or a third of the way up. The bullet is seated to the neck-body juncture, resulting in a compressed load. However, if it is compressed too much, the case could bulge and be ruined. For what it's worth, the latest Hornady manual lists the following loads and performance for the .22 Hornet and Lil Gun in a 22-inch barrel: .22 Hornet 40-grain bullet
Grains of Lil Gun:
12.8 = 2500fps
13.0 = 2600 fps
13.3 = 2700 fps
13.5 = 2800 fps
13.7 = 2900 fps (MAX) .22 Hornet 45-grain bullet
Grains of Lil Gun:
9.5 = 2300 fps
10.2 = 2400 fps
11.0 = 2500 fps
11.7 = 2600 fps
12.4 = 2700 fps
13.1 = 2800 fps (MAX) .22 Hornet 50-grain bullet
Grains of Lil Gun:
10.0 = 2200 fps
10.6 = 2300 fps
11.3 = 2400 fps
11.9 = 2500 fps
12.5 = 2600 fps
13.1 = 2700 fps (MAX) Interestingly, in light of the current Lil Gun thread on this forum, Hornady does not list a Lil Gun load for the lighter 35-grain V-Max. On the other hand, it does not list a Lil Gun load for the heavier 55-grain bullet either. May be just a coincidence.
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Posted by: Mike P ® Michael Prudhomme
06/01/2002, 15:28:26
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Andy: Let me try this again: The burn rate lists I've seen show Lil Gun at a faster burn rate than 4227 (not slower, as I said above.) Thus my surprise.
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Posted by: Andrew ®
06/01/2002, 18:02:55
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MikeP: I just left Hodgon's web site and yes, according to THAT source, Lil Gun burns faster than 4227. In their 2002 "Basic Reloader's Manual" on page five they list "Lil Gun" as the slower of the two. Odd. I tend to believe the Website! I ought to drop Hodgon's a note about their book! The Website's rates put it slower than 2400 or AA#9 -which makes more sense to me- so I will assume that if my calculations come out near those powder's levels I will be on the right track. Thanks for the heads-up. ~Andy
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Posted by: Mike P ®
06/02/2002, 00:07:10
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Andy: As noted, every source I've seen lists Lil Gun faster than 4227 but, as you noted, slower than 2400 or AA#9. Hodgdon must have gotten it wrong in the manual. Good luck with your loads. I'm betting Lil Gun will do well. I had the little 5mm barking this morning at ranges from 50 to 125 yards, with paper targets as the quarry. Still shooting well. I've put about 270 rounds through it since converting it to centerfire. I just finished loading 50 more rounds tonight with the 36-grain Berger hollowpoint. I'll be going after crows on the next several weekends during early morning hours before it heats up too badly. Maybe they've forgotten about me since I last used the 5mm on them a few weeks ago. Since then I bought a couple of new crow calls and three new decoys. Maybe they won't recognize my new "voices" or the new visitors in their neighborhood. Hope springs eternal.
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Posted by: Andrew ®
06/02/2002, 10:23:02
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Mike: Good luck with the crow calling. I will be loading cases this afternoon and tomorrow morning. I hope the wind stays at a reasonable level so I can give it a good test.~Andy
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Posted by: Nailman
06/03/2002, 10:50:02
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Well you guys have sparked my interest in the 5mm again. I just placed a order for some Berger bullets. I wish Hornady would not quit making the 5mm 33 gr but I guess I just have to live without them. Nailman...
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Posted by: Andrew ®
06/04/2002, 01:51:12
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Nailman/MikeP: Greetings! Nailman, I'll send you my address! I wasn't ignoring your offer, I just worked a long stretch of nights before doing a road trip to NM, just returning this past Sunday with my 5mm. Sorry for the non-response. To the pair of you, I shot the 592M today. I am excited, to say the least. I loaded Hodgon's "lil Gun" at 5.2 grains with a Craig "Quick Silver" 36 grn SP on top, loaded to 1.340". It was too windy for my old Tepico Time Meter chronograph so I just tested function and accuracy at 50M. There were no pressure signs -in fact, just the opposite. I wasn't getting full case obturation in the neck area and the primers were pleasingly round. I will increase the powder charge tomorrow and see if I can get the ancient chrono out there with me. I didn't weigh each charge. My Belding and Mull powder measure was tossing to 1/10th grain so I let it be. The weather was 100 degrees and windy today. The wind was blowing from over my left shoulder so I elected to shoot at 50M. After getting the first round on paper, I noted that the scope adjustments, all windage, were producing a horizontal string of bullet holes that looked as if it was drawn with a straight-edge. A nice, evenly spaced line of bullet holes working it's way towards the center of the target. This is always a pleasing event because it verifies the scope function and the consistency of the load, eh? The rifle came with a Weaver V-9 A/0 scope, "vintage" to the rifle. Nice to have it still working! My groups started at .4" for three shots and ended at .225" for three shots, getting progressively smaller. The final group was fed through the magazine (flawlessly) and this attributed to the small group. The rifle seems a bit "bag sensitive" and lifting the rifle to chamber a new round between shots wasn't doing anything to diminish the error. The bullet holes were sharp and round. The rifle "felt" as though it was in the 22WMR power range. Not very scientific but it's the best I can offer, sans chrono data. Anyhow, I am pleased and thank you gentleman for your advice and patience. I hope to be able to swop notes as loading progresses. Nailman; it will be 2 years before Hornady stops making the 33 grn V-Max. That's what I heard, at least. Again, thanks! ~Andy
Modified by Andrew at Tue, Jun 04, 2002, 02:18:15
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