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Posted by: jim saubier 05/20/2002, 08:34:06 |
I had the opportunity to shoot a woodchuck with the .17 HMR at a distance of about 10 feet (no I did not confirm with a laser range finder). The farmer asked me to shoot some of these ground hogs from around his barns (holes everywhere). I figured that the .17 HMR was just the round for such a job - quiet, small frangbile bullets. Well I parked my Jeep up by the house so as to not scare off any hogs near the barns. As I rounded the corner, there sat a hog at the corner of a corn crib eating corn. I had enough time to get the gun up and get the shot off. At the shot, he was stunned and didn't move. Then he got his feet under him and got into the thick cover. I was surprised that he had not expired immediately. I can't say exactly where I hit him since I didn't recover the carcass but I was aiming for the chest cavity. There was a few drops of blood at the site of impact and then a few more in the weeds. I can't say that I am unhappy with the performance of the round, since it didn't exit and the hog had to have expired in its hole. I have a bunch more hogs to shoot around the barns so we'll see. |
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Posted by: GeorgeS ® 05/20/2002, 11:56:49 Author Profile |
Jim, Do you think a .22mag using the 33gr. V-Max (or a .223Rem. with a reduced load using the same bullet) would have been more effective in anchoring a 'chuck? George |
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Posted by: jim saubier 05/20/2002, 15:40:06 |
Not sure since I've never shot a .22mag on anything other than paper. I don't mean to say that I am disappointed with the performance of the round, it is too early to tell and one chuck is not a good measure. The most important attributes of this new round is that it is quiet, flat shooting, accurate, and doesn't ricochet easily or have pass throughs on critters. It does all of the above very well, maybe it won't anchor a chuck - that fact alone wouldn't make me quit using it. Time will tell, but thus far I like the little round. It is very suitable to the areas that I typically hunt. |
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| Thanks. I wasn't trying to denigrate the round,... | | ||
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Posted by: GeorgeS ® 05/20/2002, 17:28:25 Author Profile |
I just wanted to hear if you thought either of the other two rounds I mentioned would have done a "better" job. George |
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Posted by: Rich in VA ® 05/21/2002, 06:25:33 Author Profile |
Jim, There was a thread Friday on GGVG about an individual in my neck of the woods shooting a couple of 'hogs at about 250 with the 17 HMR. Both dropped on the spot, and I believe the bullet exited on at least one, if not both. This same gentlemen shot another mid week last week at a ranged 235, lots of exit damage, etc., and again, 'hog didn't move. I will try to find out more details for you, as I work with one of the witnesses........ Bottom line and a good synopsis of what I heard was: "Don't underestimate a 17 cal bullet." Rich in VA |
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Posted by: MikeP 05/21/2002, 07:51:04 |
Rich: Using approximate published data on the .17 HMR and a simple table in my Speer manual shows the following approximations with the .17 HMR properties: Muzzle Vel = 2600 fps
My Humble Conclusion: The .17 HMR must use magic dust powder and undepleted uranium bullets if those reported results at 250 yards are accurate.
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Posted by: Rich in VA ® 05/22/2002, 05:27:23 Author Profile |
< Whatever. Rich in VA |
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Posted by: Phunt ® 05/22/2002, 17:46:18 Author Profile |
I dont know much about 17 cal traveling at 1230 fps
but I happen to know that at times the 22 lr lead bullet at about 1200 fps is highly underestimated. I happen to know that if a man were to become unemployed and too proud to sign up for welfare(not that its right) he could feed his family for awhile by taking his 22lr and shoot a deer at about 20 yards through the lungs and have said laying within 100 yards dead. And unless the bullet hit a rib going in it would exit other wise it would hang in the hide at side opposite entrance. I also know the a 22 bullet from one of those small autos (dont know the fps on those) from several feet can pass clear through a mans abdomon and that a 22lr from a 4 inch revolver can strike a man in the shoulder where the arm connects, hit bone, turning about 90 degrees, travel at a downward angle through the lung and smash into the spinal colomn breaking a vertebre into several peices. I know that the original post was not about 22's or men but if a 22lr traveling at 1200 or less can do so much then why not the smaller 17 on a much smaller ground hog. I dont know about foot pounds of energy but how much could it take to shove a ice pick through a ground hogs chest. I would think it would not be hard for a 17 grain 17 cal bullet to go spinning through at 1230 fps, opening up some and doing serious damage. And being alot smaller that 22lr might deform quicker than 22lr could makeing a exit that was bigger than entrance. And just about anything passing through such vitals organs(lungs, heart) can cause shock regardless of speed. I would think they would be more unpredictable than magical. Just my opinion of course. Paul |
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Posted by: MikeP 05/22/2002, 19:18:05 |
Paul: All good points you make. However, would anyone recommend the use of the .22 Long Rifle for hunting deer just because they can be killed with it? Or recommend that the military regularly use the .22 Long Rifle in combat for killing men just because it can be done? People have been killed with air rifles. The question is, if it is possible, is it automatically reasonable? I only question the use of, yes, even the ethics of, using a .17 HMR for shooting Woodchucks at 250 yards. I wonder how many shots were taken at 250 yards to get a couple of kills? How many wounded animals for each kill? Is the full story being told? In any case, a few unusual examples do not a rule make.
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Posted by: Rich in VA ® 05/23/2002, 14:08:10 Author Profile |
Mike, I can't remember reading anything in any of the above about any recommendations. Just passing along info, so that board members can digest and sift and use what they want. Further to the famous (or is that infamous?) 250 yard kills last week with the 17 HMR, my friend's step-dad shot another 'hog yesterday evening, at a ranged 210 yards. Hog (guessed at average weight, about 8 lbs.) was standing, facing the shooter, bullet entered under the chin, pieces and parts exited the rear of the hog's neck, but no huge gaping hole, like you would expect with a hot .22 centerfire. My bud saw the hit through a set of Big Eyes, no question about whether the 'hog was dead or not, very obvious to him. DRT. If you shoot a 'hog in the foot with a 300 Win Mag, he is going back in the hole, period. If you make a These guys up this way that are actually shooting these 'hogs have become firm believers in a short time. And they are well established, well known, 1000 yard competitors and hunters, not just some Joe Schmoe Redneck from Southside VA. I'm not making rules, that's for politicians. Not sure what you mean by "is the full story being told", but sounds sorta like you think that 100 'hogs are being wounded for every one killed. I assure you that is not the case, as these boys can shoot. This seems to be of some disbelief and possibly a sore subject to you, and that certainly was not my intent. Jim S. started a thread about 17 HMR bullet performance, I am just passing along what I know. Richard Jones
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Posted by: MikeP 05/23/2002, 16:17:48 |
Well stated, Richard. I remembered that you were just reporting what others had written. Each of us will have to decide what's best as long as its legal...the great American Way. Thanks. |
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Posted by: D. Epperson ® 05/23/2002, 20:14:51 Author Profile |
"Or recommend that the military regularly use the .22 Long Rifle in combat for killing men just because it can be done? " Just for the record, the PRFERED military shot on "ground pounders" is to wound, and preferably to keep the other guy from shooting at you any more. Wounded men take additional personnel out of action, dead men just take one. In that aspect, the 22 Long rifle does have and has been used to good effect as a combat rifle. But you are right, it generaly is not effective ENOUGH to be considered an THE main tool. |
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Posted by: MikeP 05/24/2002, 10:07:25 |
Well, that's a new one on me. I have seen the use of silenced .22 LR's being used by the military because they can be effectively silenced when standard velocity rounds are fired at speeds below the sound barrier. This is a highly specialized use, generally for covert operations. Otherwise, I've never read of regular use of the .22 rimfire in combat. I believe the .22 rimfire would be about my last choice for combat when the oppositon has AK 47s or even bolt-action Mausers. The wounding theory has its advantages, but that's hard to remember when your life is on the line and the enemy is out to kill you, not wound. My, what a topic. How about let's sign a truce and get back to using the small bore for topics other than humans. Deal? |
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Posted by: jim saubier 05/22/2002, 07:33:20 |
I certainly won't underestimate the small bullet, since I have never had a hog move when shot with my other .17's. I was just surprised at the results from this one incident. I hope to try it out again this holiday weekend. I am also trying to get out for a BR match on Saturday, so may not have time to get out hunting. |
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| 20 Ack Bee ????? | | ||
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Posted by: BROOKS 05/20/2002, 10:30:08 |
Anyone here done a 20 Ack Bee? I have a 17 Ack Bee, 17 HeBee and a 22 Mashburn Bee but was thinking about a 20 Ack Bee.
Thanks Brooks |
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