| 17 AH case forming loads |  | ||
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Posted by: Lt. Dan ® 01/03/2002, 21:54:58 Author Profile |
I've been looking for some loading suggestions for my first attempt at fireforming cases with IMR 4227 and Hornady 25 grain bullet in a 14" Bullberry Contender 17 AH bbl. The 22 KH was my first wildcat in a similar bbl, but this is a different world with the funny looking cases that came out of the forming dies. The first few attempts with the forming dies gave me some cases that started to collapse to about 90 degrees. Will they stretch out or should I pitch 'em and call it a learning experience? I then started moving the ram up and down with shorter strokes, which did better. Imperial sizing was is what the lube I'm using. I've been lurking here for sometime and really enjoying everybody's posts and the fine articles. It's a fine board, and I'm grateful for all the good info that's so freely shared. All tips would be greatly appreciated. Dan |
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Posted by: Dan C ® 01/04/2002, 00:43:51 Author Profile |
Dan, what are you using for dies? It sounds like you are trying to do too much too fast. It also helps to outside chamfer the necks before forming. If you don't have a form die, which you should for best results, use your seater die as form die #1. Dan C |
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Posted by: jim saubier 01/04/2002, 07:30:12 |
I agree, it sounds like you are trying to neck down too much at one time. The hornet brass is very thin and should form very easily. I use the Bullberry double end forming die and have good results with mine. As far as fireforming loads, 10 grains of 4227 with the 25 grain bullets should be close. I use 20 grain bullets in my hornet for forming and shooting. You may want to try a little less and work up a little until the cases are blowing out pretty good. With the 25 grain bullets, you should not need as much powder to blow them out and you want to be careful not to overdue it and ruin your new cases. If you load them too hot, you will open up the primer pockets or split the cases at the shoulder. I also anneal my hornet brass before fireforming - not sure if it helps or not, but I have only lost 1 case out of 100 that I formed. I used 1680 and 4227 as the powders for fireforming and again used 20 grain bullets. |
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Posted by: Varmint Al ® 01/07/2002, 20:44:29 Author Profile |
Here are the steps I go through in forming 17 Ackley Hornet. The extra steps seem to let me end up with better cases. I use a 6 gr load of Bullseye and a paper wad to keep it from spilling for fire forming. It forms to about 90% and will take a full load to completely form. Here are the steps: Neck turn nearly to the shoulder
 Good Hunting from... Varmint Al
http://www.varmintal.com/ahunt.htm |
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Posted by: Lt. Dan ® 01/12/2002, 12:18:02 Author Profile |
And the pic is great, too! Dan |
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Posted by: Lt. Dan ® 01/04/2002, 10:38:29 Author Profile |
Dies are the Bullberry custom Redding dies made for their chamber. The forming die also came from them, so I might be the sole problem here. I haven't found any real specifics of how to form the 17 AH brass, so I did what I could piece together from pics and general reading. Using the seater as part of the process is new to me and makes sense. When forming the first step was to use the end of the form die marked "1", and then the other end, and lastly the full length die. Relubing was done before each sizing. The new multiple datum lines on the cases are about .1" apart. Case prepping was done before using the dies. That is, trimming to standard Hornet length, inside and outside case mouth chamfering, flash hole deburring, and primer pocket uniforming. I didn't clean up the neck thickness with a turning tool, as the Hornet necks seem pretty thin to start with. It's a good thing I bought the big party pack (500 pcs) of the Remington brass, as I might be needing it! This was chosen for its reputation of being softer than Winchester, and it's all the same lot #. Should I shoot this first attempt or start from scratch with another batch formed with better technique? Thanks....Dan Modified by Lt. Dan at Fri, Jan 04, 2002, 10:46:13 |
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Posted by: jim saubier 01/04/2002, 10:56:29 |
Hard to tell without seeing them. The thing that you want to do is just neck down as much as you need. You don't want to neck down too much of the case or you may experience some problems. As far as the Remington Brass, I have only used Winchester because it is told to be a little thicker and will last longer. Case life is important to me after spending so much time on it. Thankfully, Hornet brass is cheap. It sounds to me like you are forming the brass correctly. Check out the article on case forming in the ARTICLES section listed at the left of your screen. It will have some pictures of the different cases at each step in the operation. They might give you an idea of what they are supposed to look like. With 500 pieces, if you have any question on the ones that you formed - chuck them out and start with new. |
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Posted by: jim saubier 01/04/2002, 11:01:50 |
Here is a picture of the Hebee case after each of the forming steps and then formed.  |
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| nice pic! | | ||
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Posted by: Lt. Dan ® 01/04/2002, 11:42:06 Author Profile |
I think I've over compensated for not knowing the chamber neck length. What I tried to do was leave the neck of the last forming the same as the K-Hornet. This would knock the shoulder back pretty far. If'n it was you, would you pitch the first batch? What are the potintial risks of fireforming what I've done? Sorry, but I don't have pic capability. Thanks....Dan Modified by Lt. Dan at Fri, Jan 04, 2002, 11:45:42 |
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Posted by: jim saubier 01/04/2002, 12:33:17 |
I would pitch the ones that you necked too far back. AND then i would set up 1 piece of brass to sacrifice. Run it through each of the steps and the FL size it with your FL die. You will be able to see how far back your FL die sizes it to. Then go back and set up your forming dies to size it so that it looks like a gradual step with each forming die. You can see from the picture how it is supposed to look. You want it to look like a nice step down and then it will blow out to fit the chamber - transforming itself from the ugling duckling to the swan kinda thing. |
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Posted by: Lt. Dan ® 01/05/2002, 12:47:08 Author Profile |
Yep, it would've been better to sacrifice one piece of brass up front than to dump the first batch like this. I'll let you know how the next attempt goes. I appreciate your sharing the experience. Dan |
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| Update on mixed success: | | ||
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Posted by: Lt. Dan ® 01/14/2002, 21:40:24 Author Profile |
I figured there wasn't much to lose by fireforming my poor first attempts, and maybe something could be learned along the way. After messing around with some 231 and stuffing some small, thin bits of toilet paper into them (no bullets used), the best load seemed to be around 6.1 grains. Even the collapsed cases straightened out, but I culled them anyhow. The good ones got a second firing to get completely formed. More of them split, and from the original group of 50, only 30 were left that looked good. And it'll be interesting to see how long these last. I'm not sure how many of the lost cases were due to my poor initial forming technique, or if they really should be annealed (which sounds like something I don't want to do unless it's necessary). Next time, I might try a few to see if correct forming will be enough. If not, I guess I'll need to learn how to anneal. Thanks to everybody who replied to this thread. You guys are teaching me a lot, and there's a whole lot more that I need to learn. Having left, but not yet arrived....Dan |
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Posted by: Lt. Dan ® 01/14/2002, 21:41:09 Author Profile |
n/t Modified by Lt. Dan at Mon, Jan 21, 2002, 18:58:19 |
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