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steve123 11-14-2017 05:09 PM

Brain strain
 
Hi guys,

This is going to seem like a weird post because my main purpose is not varmint hunting, although at some point I will do that!

I want to get a rifle and cartridge for a specific reason, custom rifle or not I'm unsure of right now, or for that matter what caliber or cartridge to select.

The dilemma..
Out my friends back yard are some small steel set from 50Y on out to 450Y. With my 17R or 223 hitting the steel is no challenge in normal winds so that gets boring real quick. With my Anschutz 22 rimfire, using match ammo, I can hit the same steel fairly regularly in calmish conditions but as you can imagine at the slightest change in wind conditions the "extra" challenge basically becomes a waste of my $12 a box ammo.

Now to what I'm trying to accomplish...
I want something in between the aforementioned cartridges to provide some challenge at the 150Y to 450Y steel. The tiny cases are what is intriguing me right now.

I have a HK300 in 22 mag which is a wonderful rifle but it's a 1.5 moa rifle and 30vmax, which it likes best, absolutely sucks in the wind past 200Y or so.

First I thought of 17HMR but from what I've read the ammo is inconsistent which is a thing I despise and I won't settle for a 1 moa/ moa+ rifle cartridge combo. I don't want to chance it either. If there was true match ammo that would change things.

So I've read about 17 Velociraptor(got over 1000 brass), 17 VHA, 17TCM, others and what I definitely don't want to happen is a "GIANT" hassle with forming and possible negative nuances to each design.

What I do want is a factory case or a "one easy neck down" wildcat.

At the top of priorities is having an intrinsically accurate cartridge, with good quality long lasting brass, that uses the smallest amount of powder. 10-15 grains???

What would the more experienced guys suggest for me to do???

Thanks for any and all advice!

17tbs 11-14-2017 05:44 PM

If you want to use a .17, and have little or no headache, get a 17 Hornet.

If you want a wildcat that uses less powder around the 9 to 10 grain mark using H4198, then get a 17VHA ad I did, or in your case a 17 Vrap.

Personally the brass on the 5.7x28 case leaves a bit to be desired when considering the rim. It is notoriously weak. I tried it and gave up.

With the 4.6x30mm HK brass it is a better /tougher case with a better pressure rating.

It is a single step to form the neck, you should already have a neck turn and trim cutter. Many of us here have a reamer for the 17vha.

Die sets and reamers are available from a couple of reliable sources.

It will run you about 100 to 220 for a quality reamer, and about the same coin for dies.

As a cartridge it is fun to shoot, gets the job done with very little powder, & it's about as noisy or as quiet as you may care to make it.

Get a really good and reliably accurate powder measure and a quality scale if you don't have a set already and you will be in business as soon as you get your rifle finished at a gunsmith.

Now, if you must go through that effort and wish do so in spite of a perfectly good alternative with off the shelf components, i.e., a 17 Hornady Hornet then by all means do it. If you select a guy to build your rifle, or do it yourself select the best barrel and reamer quality and be hyper selective and you will end up with a set of tools that can get you hits on a gopher out to 350m+ with the right glass. Load it down using trailboss and you end up duplicating a 17HM2 or a 17HMR.

All in all it is not a bad cartridge the little 17VHA, it just has a bit of overhead cost. Getting it in a repeater will take a bit of a search and some help from others here on the forum to point out the right way to do it.

Good luck. Have fun.

http://www.saubier.com/forum/picture...&pictureid=541

Nor Cal Mikie 11-14-2017 06:34 PM

As far as dealing with the 17 VHA, IMHO, I would steer away from it unless you're really into forming brass and been around for a long time. It can at times test your patience.:(
If you want a round in 22 caliber, think .221 Fireball. 15 to 20 gains of powder and deadly accurate.
Or 20 caliber. The 20 VT would fit the bill. Same amount of powder and about the same accuracy. Easy to make brass.
If you want to use less powder, maybe something like the 22 TCM might fit your needs. Around 15 grains of powder and much better brass available.
Rimfire is fine but you can't adjust the powder charge. That's where the small center fire rounds come into play.:cool:
Finding a rifle that will repeat reliably may be a challenge. There's a few that were made to fire and repeat so you'll have to do some looking around. OR, if you must, go single shot and avoid the feeding issues.:D

Teancum1 11-14-2017 06:42 PM

Shrink the target
 
Sounds like you have a choice between a caliber with more "variation" in performance, or you can stick with the rifle/caliber of your choice and shoot at a smaller target.

steve123 11-14-2017 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 17tbs (Post 262274)
If you want to use a .17, and have little or no headache, get a 17 Hornet.

If you want a wildcat that uses less powder arpund the 9 to 10 grain mark using H4198, then get a 17VHA ad I did, or in your case a 17 Vrap.

Personally the brass on the 5.7x28 case leaves a bit to be desired when considering the rim. It is notoriously weak. I tried it and gave up.

With the 4.6x30mm HK brass it is a better /tougher case with a better pressure rating.

It is a single step to form the neck, you should already have a neck turn and trim cutter. Many of us here have a reamer for the 17vha.

Die sets and reamers are available from a couple of reliable sources.

It will run you about 100 to 220 for a quality reamer, and about the same coin for dies.

As a cartridge it is fun to shoot, gets the job done with very little powder, & it's about as noisy or as quiet as you may care to make it.

Get a really good and reliably accurate powder measure and a quality scale if you don't have a set already and you will be in business as soon as you get your rifle finished at a gunsmith.

Now, if you must go through that effort and wish do so in spite of a perfectly good alternative with off the shelf components, i.e., a 17 Hornady Hornet then by all means do it. If you select a guy to build your rifle, or do it yourself select the best barrel and reamer quality and be hyper selective and you will end up with a set of tools that can get you hits on a gopher out to 350m+ with the right glass. Load it down using trailboss and you end up duplicating a 17HM2 or a 17HMR.

All in all it is not a bad cartridge the little 17VHA, it just has a bit of overhead cost. Getting it in a repeater will take a bit of a search and some help from others here on the forum to point out the right way to do it.

Good luck. Have fun.

http://www.saubier.com/forum/picture...&pictureid=541

Thanks man!

Some questions, for those that have 17HH, how long does the brass last on average and what kind of accuracy have you achieved with a custom rifle vs a stock rifle like a CZ? Suppose you got a stock CZ and it shot 1+moa, how did it shoot after a nice barrel and gunsmithing? Or is it common for 1/2" groups at 100Y?

What do you guys do about the odd sized bolt face the VHA requires, if it infact has a odd size?

Is the VHA one neck down?(Edit, oops I saw you wrote it is one neck down) The downsides of the VHA?

william t. oviatt 11-14-2017 07:52 PM

Just me but....

A CZ 17 HH has got to be the simplest solution....accurate and off-the-shelf...

If you want something custom to buck the wind...the Hornet again is hard to beat..get a 22 K-hornet with a fast twist barrel (minimum 1/9) and amaze yourself! The bullet availability is huge in 22 and 6mm offerings...

My 6mm Hornet with 15+grains of 1680 or CFE BLK is a 3000+fps cartridge with 55 Noslers and 58 Vmaxes. Significant wind is NOT an issue with these bullets, compared to 17 cal bullet.
I can fire this 24 Calhoon repeatedly 50 rounds and not overheat the barrel...My CZ 17HH can't do that...

All Kinds of hornet brass out there to make one happy with quality....

Almost any direction in different cartridges have compromises, like too much powder for any significant gain in velocity, or, complicated case construction, or.....

Just my thoughts on your subject....

Bill

steve123 11-14-2017 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nor Cal Mikie (Post 262277)
As far as dealing with the 17 VHA, IMHO, I would steer away from it unless you're really into forming brass and been around for a long time. It can at times test your patience.:(
If you want a round in 22 caliber, think .221 Fireball. 15 to 20 gains of powder and deadly accurate.
Or 20 caliber. The 20 VT would fit the bill. Same amount of powder and about the same accuracy. Easy to make brass.
If you want to use less powder, maybe something like the 22 TCM might fit your needs. Around 15 grains of powder and much better brass available.
Rimfire is fine but you can't adjust the powder charge. That's where the small center fire rounds come into play.:cool:
Finding a rifle that will repeat reliably may be a challenge. There's a few that were made to fire and repeat so you'll have to do some looking around. OR, if you must, go single shot and avoid the feeding issues.:D

Thanks, I'm still making it hard on myself, lol.

When you say "much better brass available" for the 22 TCM, is it that the VHA brass is inconsistent or the 17HH brass is inconsistent? These are the kind of hang ups I'm trying to avoid. What are the pitfalls of forming VHA?

I have done some wildcats and actually my favorite cartridge is 6x47L. I'm on my 6th barrel. 105 hybrids at 3172 fps is really something! Next barrel I'll get a 7 twist and try the 110 SMK's.

I use a Harrells powder measure but usually throw and weigh my charges on a Scott Parker tuned beam scale.

I forgot to mention this, I'll try to get my friends to do the same cartridge I do.

I'm not a gunsmith BTW. For any of these cartridges it sure would be nice to have a matching reamer, to die set, system, like for example with my 6mmFatRat. Well same for my 6x47 but I did that the hard way, it wasn't a turn key system.

steve123 11-14-2017 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teancum1 (Post 262278)
Sounds like you have a choice between a caliber with more "variation" in performance, or you can stick with the rifle/caliber of your choice and shoot at a smaller target.

There's that too.

If I can just squeeze around 1/2" at 100Y consistently I'll be happy. The steel is 1.5-2 moa in size.

Story... I bought a used CZ527 in 17 Rem. At first the rifle shot at 1 moa then went to crap right after I finished load development. I had to have it rebarreled.
It shoots .6.7" now so I'm satisfied, but I took a chance and look what happened.

steve123 11-14-2017 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by william t. oviatt (Post 262281)
Just me but....

A CZ 17 HH has got to be the simplest solution....accurate and off-the-shelf...

If you want something custom to buck the wind...the Hornet again is hard to beat..get a 22 K-hornet with a fast twist barrel (minimum 1/9) and amaze yourself! The bullet availability is huge in 22 and 6mm offerings...

My 6mm Hornet with 15+grains of 1680 or CFE BLK is a 3000+fps cartridge with 55 Noslers and 58 Vmaxes. Significant wind is NOT an issue with these bullets, compared to 17 cal bullet.
I can fire this 24 Calhoon repeatedly 50 rounds and not overheat the barrel...My CZ 17HH can't do that...

All Kinds of hornet brass out there to make one happy with quality....

Almost any direction in different cartridges have compromises, like too much powder for any significant gain in velocity, or, complicated case construction, or.....

Just my thoughts on your subject....

Bill

Thanks Bill,

I didn't realize 17HH heated a barrel that fast. Frequent cleaning too? I'm learning from you guys.

20 Vartarg doesn't heat a barrel as fast as the 17HH, or about the same?

Anybody try the 55gr Bergers in the 20 VT?

221 fireball isn't looking to bad after all.

steve123 11-14-2017 08:29 PM

How about the 30 carbine based wildcats?


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