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-   -   OT: Shoulder set-back during seating (http://www.saubier.com/forum/showthread.php?t=36068)

Teancum1 11-08-2019 01:32 PM

OT: Shoulder set-back during seating
 
This is off-topic because it is specifically for a 7mm WSM, but I could use some ideas. I have reloaded for this rifle for years - meaning about once every 7 years I load up 40 rounds for hunting. I am using a standard set of RCBS dies. My problem is in bullet seating. I adjust my die to just touch the case mouth, set my seating depth, turn the seater plug out a few turns, take the die down ~1/8th turn, re-set the seater plug and go. Same as I always do. However, I wind up with the shoulder actually being pushed down a few thousandths and the shoulder is actually buckled at the case body. It is slight, but enough that the cases won't chamber. What am I doing wrong?

My short solution is to order a Lee factory crimp die, but I'd like to understand what I am doing and why/how a seating die can ever push back the shoulder. Thanks for your insights.

Bayou City Boy 11-08-2019 01:42 PM

If the bullets are seating hard, maybe the expander ball size needs to be looked at.

In addition, it sounds like you might be too close to the case when seating and actually crimping the neck unintentionally. Back the seater die up away from the case neck and bevel the inside case neck before seating the bullet. The cartridge case neck does not need to be crimped at all which is maybe what is happening you're while seating a bullet.

-BCB

Johnly 11-08-2019 01:44 PM

Been there... Done that.
Your seating die is trying to crimp the bullet into cannelure that isn't present, and something has got to give. In this case, the case shoulder.
Just back off the seating die body a half turn and you'll be good to go.
You don;t really need to apply a bullet crimp with the recoil level of a 7mm WSM.

SEM 11-08-2019 02:36 PM

if you want a crimp, make that adjustment after you seat your the bullet to the depth you want it then turn down the die a bit at a time until you get the desired crimp you want, adjusting a crimp with out a bullet wont work well the neck diameter is smaller with out a bullet present allowing the case to enter the die further, end result crushed shoulder, ask me how I know.

Teancum1 11-09-2019 07:22 PM

I think my root problem started with neck tension when sizing. I have done two things. I annealed my cases and I chucked up the spindle and took about 2 thousandths off the expander ball. I will see how that goes

Gary in Illinois 11-09-2019 09:15 PM

Unless I am thinking backwards about this (aways a strong possibility!) it seems you are going in the wrong direction. By reducing the expander ball diameter you are going to INCREASE the neck tension when seating the bullet, aren’t you? This increase in resistance in seating the bullet will likely cause the neck to be forced into the shoulder thus moving the shoulder back.

Like I said, I may be looking at this backwards. If so, please disregard the preceding paragraph.:rolleyes:

Bayou City Boy 11-09-2019 09:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary in Illinois (Post 285722)
Unless I am thinking backwards about this (aways a strong possibility!) it seems you are going in the wrong direction. By reducing the expander ball diameter you are going to INCREASE the neck tension when seating the bullet, aren’t you? This increase in resistance in seating the bullet will likely cause the neck to be forced into the shoulder thus moving the shoulder back.

Like I said, I may be looking at this backwards. If so, please disregard the preceding paragraph.:rolleyes:

That was exactly my thought too, Gary. Until the die is moved up from the case neck, the problem will likely still exist. And now its going to be assisted by a too tight of a neck.

JMO - and maybe I'm missing something too.


-BCB

Daryl 11-10-2019 10:28 PM

No matter how many times I cut it, it's still too short.
Going the wrong way on this one. The expander button needs to be larger in dia.
so it produces a larger diameter neck, reducing the amount of force needed to seat a new bullet.
Too, the die is set too low, utilizing the internal crimping ring which is buckling the cases at the shoulder.
Oft times, if the necks and shoulders are too soft from annealing, this will also cause buckling, but the crimp ring is the usual culprit.

dungheap 11-11-2019 01:25 AM

Reading the initial post, I would turn the seater die in until it touches the case and then BACK IT OFF an eighth of a turn, then adjust the seater plug. It might help to chamfer your case mouths with the likes of a VLD reamer, especially if you're using flat base bullets. Sounds to me like you are either setting the die to crimp, or, when you adjust the die the way you described, you may actually be setting the shoulder back.

AzSam 11-11-2019 02:44 AM

One other item to consider in addition to the other mentioned solutions. When a case neck is annealed after it has been sized, any lubrication that may of been present is burned off. All that one is left is a squeaking clean bullet getting seated into a squeaking clean neck. A quick pass with a nylon brush with a little motor mica helps solve that in addition to providing more uniform seating pressure.

Backing of the seating die is where I start right along with BCB and Johnly.

Michael.


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