Saubier.com  



Go Back   Saubier.com > Saubier.com Forums > Small Caliber Discussion Board

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Old 07-02-2022, 07:17 PM
moorepower moorepower is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,549
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JDHasty View Post
You are right. Those are Varmint Nightmare 20 grain bullets. We have Dogtown HP 20 grain too, I think they are rebranded Varmagedon.

I shoot Remington and Hornady 25 grain HP bullets out of my 17 Rem and love them. Great on coyotes.

My buddy and I both came to the same conclusion independently on the 20 grain tipped bullets at ranges over 225-250. He remarked to me that sometimes they just don’t seem to kill as well as the HPs with a solid hit. I told him I had made the same observation. We both had more consistent outright kills using the HP 20 grain bullets. Nobody else we talk to has that experience. We shoot a lot of chucks most years and can shoot north of a hundred/day in some of the areas we shoot in so it could be that we notice it if we have five or six crawl away wherein if another guy shoots a hundred in a season they don’t notice it.

If we didn’t have access to accurate range finders we would probably be averse to shooting the HP bullets, but with modern range finders it doesn’t make a difference to us. I bought a hella bunch of Dogtown HPs really cheap and until we had those neither of us had bothered to try HP bullets in the 17 Hornet.

To be honest, neither of us care much if we shoot HP or tipped 20 grain bullets. We just both think the tipped bullet performance on chucks can be iffy at the limits of the ranges we are shooting them at.
I have never even seen a chuck!
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 07-02-2022, 08:22 PM
JDHasty JDHasty is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Wet side of Washington
Posts: 623
Default

Rockchucks we shoot range in size from about that of a grown prairie dog on up to perhaps 16 or more lbs. I am fully aware that this contradicts most information out there regarding the upper limit size, but the simple truth is that when feeding in alfalfa or especially out of the feed bunks at a finishing operation, some of them dwarf the competition.

Case in point and this is a larger one that was feeding in alfalfa. When on grain they can look like a bed pillow with a head like a tennis ball when laying flat on a rock.
https://hunting-washington.com/smf/i...tml#msg2613568

What my buddy and I recognize as terminal performance failure of the tipped bullets is a chuck that is not DRT. They die, but not before being ambulatory for ten to twenty feet. As a general rule, when I have looked at these “failures” I can see an exit wound that suggests to me that the bullet has not expanded or fragmented. We don’t go out and look at 90% of the chucks we shoot, but it impresses me that in most cases in which the chuck is DRT the bullet does not exit.

The 25 grain HP Hornady and Remington bullets have a very small HP, but at the striking velocity from my 17 Remington they blow up. Muzzle velocity is about 4,100 fps and we shoot it at ranges of 250 - 400 yards or maybe a bit further. At 250 it launches large chucks a foot and a half or two feet in the air with a center body hit.

The HP on the 20 grain bullets is larger. I’ve never shot a 25 grain bullet in the 17 Hornet and the 25 V-max tumbles out on my Ultra Wildcat. I’ve never shot a 20 grain bullet in it.

We are getting right at 3,600 fps MV from the 17 Hornets.

I have a photo in my phone of two chucks I shot at 311 yards a month ago with a 20 V-max. They were both on a rock and lined up. The bullet went through chest of the one in front and it crawled off, the one behind caught the bullet amidships and was DRT. We went out to take a look at those two and first one was trying to make the den when it expired, but didn’t quite get there.

When I post that we prefer the HP over either Nosler or Hornady tipped 20 grain bullets when shooting where we get longish shots because we feel we are getting more consistent bullet expansion some people seem to take exception to me sharing that observation. I don’t claim that the tipped bullets are an abject and dismal failure at the limits of the range we are shooting. We just have both come to the conclusion that the HP bullets terminal performance has a track record of being a bit more reliable for us at those distances.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 07-02-2022, 08:38 PM
carbon carbon is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Posts: 24
Default

I know this is not what the OP asked, but just responding to 17 Hornet performance from my point of view.

I shoot prairie dogs with 22LR, 17 Hornet, and 204. I only shoot factory ammo.

With the Hornet I shoot the 20gr Hornady Superperformance Vmax out to ~250 and sometimes out to 300 if conditions are just right. The cartridge is absolutely splattery lethal on PDs and from 220yds and closer will often launch the critters into acrobatics. This is fun.

The recoil is low enough to allow the shooter to enjoy the show at these close ranges.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 07-04-2022, 11:41 AM
SBS SBS is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 82
Default

So,,,, anyone here have a .20 Hornady Hornet or done any research about such a wildcat? Any info. would be helpful.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 07-04-2022, 12:14 PM
ray h ray h is offline
Supporting Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: central Md
Posts: 2,854
Default

The draw back I see you'll need a custom sizing die and need a special reamer made. With the 20 Ack Hornet Redding makes dies and reamers can be rented, found used or bought new. If the turns your crank, go for it.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 07-04-2022, 05:37 PM
JDHasty JDHasty is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Wet side of Washington
Posts: 623
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ray h View Post
The draw back I see you'll need a custom sizing die and need a special reamer made. With the 20 Ack Hornet Redding makes dies and reamers can be rented, found used or bought new. If the turns your crank, go for it.
Being as the quality of Hornady 17 HH brass (if you can actually locate any) totally sucks, and you would be FAR better off starting with PPU 22 Hornet brass than just necking up Hornady 17 HH cases… the only reason I can see for going the HH instead of the Ackley route would to have something different.

Just be prepared to anneal before fire forming.

Not only does the Hornady 17 HH brass have problems with the primer pockets that “everyone” seems to be aware of, if you weigh them they vary considerably. We sort them into light and heavy and keep them separate, but even though there are obviously two batches they fall in. The brass in each batch isn’t that consistent either.

I prefer PPU, but the above also applies to quite a few other makes of 22 Hornet brass.

If there is any practical advantage to the 20 HH over the 20 Ackley Hornet it totally escapes me.

Last edited by JDHasty; 07-04-2022 at 05:42 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 07-04-2022, 08:24 PM
GLWenzl GLWenzl is offline
Supporting Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,641
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ray h View Post
The draw back I see you'll need a custom sizing die and need a special reamer made. With the 20 Ack Hornet Redding makes dies and reamers can be rented, found used or bought new. If the turns your crank, go for it.
Hey Ray, could one use a factory FL NB 17 HH die and correct bushings if available. I see Hornady doesn’t make that die and Redding list their type S die as 17 hornet which I’m not 100% sure which one they are referring to but assuming a HH.

Looking at prices, factory dies appear to be priced at custom die prices (of yesteryears!

Not only do I think a factory 20 Hornet or better yet a Bee sized case would be awesome but also enjoyed shooting the old Remington 20 magnum rimfire along side the HMR. Bring back the 5mm Mag For me they both had their place and I don’t feel bad about owning both.
__________________
Shoot First... Ask questions later... On Saubier.com
__________________
NRA Lifetime Endowment Member
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 07-04-2022, 09:54 PM
JDHasty JDHasty is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Wet side of Washington
Posts: 623
Default

Custom Lee Collet dies are once again available. They made a couple sets for us in 17 Hornady Hornet, so they can obviously make one in 20 Hornet of either persuasion. The price went up to $100 for custom Collet Die sets. I use Vickerman seating dies, so the seating die isn’t anything I want or need, but they will not sell the custom die as a stand alone.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 07-04-2022, 11:28 PM
ray h ray h is offline
Supporting Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: central Md
Posts: 2,854
Default

Gary I'd want dimensions of what ever die you use and then compare to the Hornady Hornet. A reamer could be ordered and then pray you get what you ordered. The 20 Ack Hornet isn't broke so a 20 Hornady Hornet won't fix it. You know how much I like this wildcatting small calibers, I've done more than a couple that didn't turn out too impressive. LOL
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 07-04-2022, 11:28 PM
B23 B23 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 781
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GLWenzl View Post
could one use a factory FL NB 17 HH die and correct bushings if available. Redding list their type S die as 17 hornet which I’m not 100% sure which one they are referring to but assuming a HH.
They're 17HH dies. I use Redding type S bushing dies for both of my factory CZ 527 17 Hornets.

I can check this later because I have one of those Redding dies but the potential issue with using a Redding 17HH bushing die, for a 20HH project, would be the transition area up inside the die right before the neck of the brass goes in to the bushing, because it's a 17HH die, even if you're using a larger inside diameter bushing for a 20HH it would probably size it close to 17 caliber regardless of the size of the bushing which would be well under what you'd want for a 20HH.

If that were a problem and you wanted to use a Redding 17HH bushing die I suppose you could always have that portion of the die honed and opened up. Or, you could just use one of those dies and remove the bushing all together then use a mandrel to set neck tension to whatever you wanted.

Hornady 17 Hornet brass isn't fantastic stuff but it's not terrible either. My biggest issue with it is the varying neck thickness from Lot to Lot so I always keep my 17HH brass segregated by neck thickness and use the appropriate bushing so my neck tension stays consistent.

Any of the Hornets, factory or wildcats, are fun little cartridges to shoot. They're rather quiet, especially with a can on them, and because they have nearly no recoil offer a lot of fun for all ages and skill levels. But, they're never going to be a BR cartridge nor are they going to be something anyone will use on small critters at any real distance because they really start losing their steam when you get much past 200 yards. That doesn't mean they won't kill ground squirrels or PD's well past that because they certainly will but the further you shoot stuff with them past those ranges and the bigger the target the less dramatic and effective they are as a killer.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 08:04 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.