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  #11  
Old 03-24-2013, 12:20 PM
george ulrich george ulrich is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronraad View Post
I understand that most carbide dies work on a design with a carbide insert with a tool steel threaded housing.

Given the insert is a 'press fit', the engineer in me says the carbide insert should be finished with a radius on the 'buried' end. How do those carbide die makers among you finish the carbide insert?

I believe there is quite a 'crack' that takes place when the insert is press fitted into place. What size press do you use to perform the press-fit; and what tolerances do you use for the press fit?
a small radius on lead in end with a lead to make sure insert pushes in straight. generally .003-.004 interference. I have increased to .009 to salvage old dies that needed to have a smaller i.d.. not to much of a crack when doing new dies, press 20 ton I think not sure I don't look as long as there going in. george
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  #12  
Old 03-30-2013, 03:05 AM
Utah Shooter Utah Shooter is offline
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I do not mean to step on any toes here but I would have a question as to coating a normal steel die? Would it make the steel dies last longer?
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  #13  
Old 03-30-2013, 11:54 AM
george ulrich george ulrich is offline
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probably some type of nitriding would put a thin barrier .0003-.0005 which would be a help,hard chrome is to difficult to get it into a small any deeper than the i.d. of die. at makes the only problem I see with nitriding is you should relap die afterwards so you are removing some of the nitriding, also theres the extra cost involved I don't think its real bad but its more time and more cost.nitriding would make die harder per say but the grain structure is still there which is what makes steel dies harder to operate as compared to carbide which starts as a powdered metal actually are small spheres that are pressed under heat and pressure with a binder to form.think of it as sliding your foot on a cement driveway,and then sliding on same driveway with ice on it. george

Last edited by george ulrich; 03-30-2013 at 12:09 PM.
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  #14  
Old 03-31-2013, 01:51 PM
Al Nyhus Al Nyhus is offline
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I had one of my Blackmon point up dies melonited. The lube requirements and type of lube are totally different from the standard die.

Melonite treated (lt), standard (rt):

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  #15  
Old 03-31-2013, 08:06 PM
stephen perry 1 stephen perry 1 is offline
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Default Melonite

Al
Is melonite a form of nitriding? And was there a significant change in bullet measurement before and after. My guess your Blackmon should hold their measurements for your bullet making career.

Al I really enjoyed this Thread. The guys did a good job in comparing steel to carbide dies. I have 2 carbide sets a Simonson 6 and Rorhschach 22 set and a Bahler 22 set. Given the longevity of stainless I would go with either.

As far as stainless holding it's bullet tolerance I asked Jim Folwell how his stainless were holding up. He mentioned after 100,000 bullets maybe .0001 wear. But that was the best as he could measure.

As far as commercial, Sierra back in the 70's started converting some of their dies to carbide. Ferris Pindell and Arvie Martin were the designers and machinist that brought carbide dies to the industry.

Anymore info on stainless or carbide would be appreciated. There is more info in books The Ultimate in Rifle Precision, The Benchrest Shooting Primer and The Accurate Rifle and articles in 'Rifle' and 'Handloader' and other sources.

Stephen Perry

Last edited by stephen perry 1; 03-31-2013 at 08:31 PM.
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  #16  
Old 03-31-2013, 10:32 PM
george ulrich george ulrich is offline
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Stephen, Ferris never did any carbide all were made from graph-mo. tool steel.as for the carbide ross Sherman and Clarence detsch were making during the late 60's. have a good holiday george p.s. melonite is a type of carburizing
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  #17  
Old 03-31-2013, 10:47 PM
stephen perry 1 stephen perry 1 is offline
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George I was referring to what happened at Sierra with carbide. Not aware what part Ferris or Arvie played in bringing carbide to Sierra though I have more references to Arvie.

As far as what Ferris did on his own equipment I find no reference to carbide dies. To me the longevity of steel served Ferris needs.

Thanks for the reference of Sherman and Detsch making carbide dies. George one thing interests me. Is the carbide insert drilled for the bullet size before inserted in the die or after.

Stephen Perry
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  #18  
Old 03-31-2013, 11:02 PM
george ulrich george ulrich is offline
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Stephen, dies at least what I do start out as a preform, in other words the carbide is rough formed on outside and bullet shape is rough formed on inside I allow about .020. to finish o.d. and about .020 on i.d. I specify a .02-.03 thru hole to finish for ejec. pin. o.d is banded then finish ground to size, i.d. is roughed on edm then I rough to lapping size by internal grinding. next preliminary lap to within .0002 push in body allow to rest (i.d. will move alittle) then finish lap. hope this explains the steps. george
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  #19  
Old 04-03-2013, 04:57 AM
J. Reynolds J. Reynolds is offline
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Default Request for Help!

Gentlemen,
I have seen reference on another forum(Benchrest.com) to a book presumably about bullet swaging' by either Ray Biehler, Walt Astles or both. If any of you can provide information on such a book, it would be a great help as I am trying to obtain it. Obviously actual title, publisher, publication date or exact author would be a tremendous help.
Thanks!
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  #20  
Old 04-04-2013, 01:05 AM
stephen perry 1 stephen perry 1 is offline
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What you saw on BR Central was a Bullet Thread where Gerry M. referred to the B&A book he has. Since the book is out of print I suggest you try Abebooks, one word. I have bought the Whelen book The Ultimate in Rifle Precision. The book has several sections on bullet swaging including a section on B&A dies, mine is a Third Edition. Anything written B or A should be searched by author as I don't know of a title by B&A.

Stephen Perry
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