Photo of the new "20 Vartarg Short". BUT, can a rifle be made for it!!?

[Centerfire]

I'm confined mostly to the public firing range where my 20tactical, 22x47L and 6.5 Creedmoor is more then enough blast for me. My AR15's with 6-24X and target loads are not so relaxing to shoot either with all that busy spring action moving against my face. A lot of guys say that the 20VT produces plenty of noise too. I'm kind of burned out with overly noisy guns for the time being and just need a change of pace more like my low blast Bruno 22Hornet. The goal is to put my RemBDL (in the photo) back into action to have a casual gun to shoot 1/2" or so groups at the range. The 20TCM would be a problem to feed. My "20VT Short" cartridge (in photo) measures .875" from base to shoulder, and .800" would likely be as short as I can go to get it to feed as a repeater in my 700.
ChuckM, Could you tell me what the base to shoulder measures on your cartridge? It looks close to mine.

DREWH,
That's kind of you to offer me the 20Viper dummies, but it is clearly a larger case then what I want. Funny you should mention NorCal Mikie........ I spent an hour skimming through the search to see a post that he mentioned he owns a "20VT Short" which he says is about a 1/4" shorter then the 20VT. I might contact him to see if he will be kind enough to fill me in on it, as it sounds EXACTLY what I'm searching for.

Yes gents, the 20VT would be a lot easier to reload for, but I'm just not sure I'll be happy with my slim-stocked, casual style 700 rifle if it booms almost the same as my 10lb 20Tactical varmint rifle.

[Nor Cal Mikie]

Figured I should get in a few licks.
First off, I figure most of you Guys are FAR beyond me in experience when it comes to reloading and building wildcats.
The word "Oversizing" comes up?? If you cut the bottom off of a standard resizing die, it changes the position of the standard taper and you end up shaving brass off the case body. Been there, done that. It's been said that the sizing die is soft and can be reamed? Might be worth trying to open up the lower body section to eliminate that problem. Be nice to own a lathe.
Doing dies for your wildcat can be time consuming so keep that in mind.
I wanted less recoil (if you can call it that) so I pushed the shoulder back about .200 on a Remington .221 Fireball case that I formed into the 20 VT. Didn't really think about it at the time but probably was reinventing the wheel. Every case body got shaved when I tried to size it. It formed a ring of shaved brass just above the rim. Tried lots of lube. That didn't make any difference. Finally went after it with a file. Results not pretty but the built up area got removed, Finally figured out a "Lee Bulge Buster" die would remove that built up area. What it does is size the lower section of the body to get rid of the built up scraped area. Actually more trouble than it's worth but a needed operation if you want smooth cases. GOOD finished brass was hit and miss. Depends a lot on the brass you end up using.
But after a little research, I stumbled on to the 22 TCM. Factory made brass with the proper head stamp. OAL of the TCM is just shy of 1".
Necked it down to 20, stuffed a bullet into the neck down to the shoulder/neck junction, ran the upper portion into a full length die to make sure the "bulge" was gone at the shoulder, shipped it off to JGS and had them cut me a reamer. The 22 TCM design is "propritary" and they couldn't cut a reamer from a print BUT,the dummy round specs were different than the print so I got my reamer.
The Fireball or the VT case takes close to 20 grains of powder. The "short" takes around 15 and the TCM will take around 10 or so. Recoil? In a 10 pound rifle, probably in the neighborhood of a 22 Mag round. I doubt you will feel it or get much rig movement.
As far as feeding? Good luck with that idea.
Seems like Remington, Cooper or maybe Kimber builds a Fireball chambered rifle with the extractor in a different position so there's no problem with extracting the shorter case? I single feed on a Savage action with the ejector removed so the short case stays on the bolt head till I pick it off.
I have two 20 caliber barrels out being rechambered from the 20 VT "short" to the 20 TCM. Shouldn't be too long till I get them back and I can pop a few rounds so I can have dies made from fired brass. Any questions, feel free to ask. I may have a few myself, Mike.

[Centerfire]

NorCalMikie,

Thanks...... You saved me the trouble of contacting you as I said I was going to do in my post #11 where I mentioned your name in bold print. LOL I forgot the reamer can be used to alter the S type sizing die. If the smith is going to ream a new 20cal barrel for me, I would hope I can get him to ream the sizer die for me too. Shortening the Wilson seater shouldn't be an issue. The 20TCM is a no-go for me. I hand feed my rounds into all my custom smithed 700 rifles, but I demand that they can work as a repeater. Call me funny that way, but to me it's the satisfaction of knowing your Corvette can do 185mph, even if you never do it.

Your "20VT Short" sounds EXACTLY in length of what I want. The shortened 22Fireball case you see in my photo does repeat in my Rem700 when I stack it on top of two 221fireball cartridges. I need to make about 4 dummies with my fired 20Tactical brass and see if they stack & work in the Rem700. If I understand CHUCK MILLER, his 17 Spartan does feed if he chambers it slowly/carefully. (17 Spartan basically same shortened case)

QUESTION TO YOU; In your opinion, would the difference in blast and recoil between your "20VT Short" and standard 20VT make a difference for somebody like me wanting a more a more casual shooter? Or, I need to get real and just realize that it's never going to be a civilized 20AHornet & just save myself a lot of trouble and do the 20VT.

[Chuck Miller]

In measuring a fired case from the head to the start of the shoulder it's approx .860", depending on how you hold it, couple thou either way with my bad eyes. Case length is 1.20" My load is 14grs of RL7 and a 20gr vmax, primers are still rounded, forming load 13.5 RL7. I've not chrono'ed it so no idea of the speed.

[rickiesrevenge]

Sizing dies are hardened. If you run a HSS reamer in them it'll make junk of both the reamer and die. I suppose you could do it with a carbide reamer. I've trimmed small amounts off the bottom of dies with carbide tooling and it works fine. HSS won't touch it.

If you're set on building this you NEED to get a reamer made for it and dies to match. Dies and brass are tapered. They are bigger at the bottom end. If your reamer is very large at the bottom end you MAY be able to get away with just running it in short. If its fairly close to the dimension of the brass you're gonna use your going to have problems.

Aaron

[Centerfire]

Originally Posted by Chuck Miller

In measuring a fired case from the head to the start of the shoulder it's approx .860", depending on how you hold it, couple thou either way with my bad eyes. Case length is 1.20" My load is 14grs of RL7 and a 20gr vmax, primers are still rounded, forming load 13.5 RL7. I've not chrono'ed it so no idea of the speed.

Thanks Chuck. Yep, that is right on the money with the dummy case in my photo. Close enough in length, with yours being a hair shorter which I would prefer anyway. I'll ask you the same as I just asked Mikie; Even though it's a 17 cal and NOT a 20cal I'm intending, do you see much of a worthwhile difference between blast & recoil of that VS the 17 Fireball?
BTW; Is your 14gr of RL17 a fairly full case? The Hornady 17MachIV holds 14.2 at the lowest loading, and 16.3 at the highest. There's a 400FPS spread there in which the 2 grains makes a big difference.

[Centerfire]

Originally Posted by rickiesrevenge

Sizing dies are hardened. If you run a HSS reamer in them it'll make junk of both the reamer and die. I suppose you could do it with a carbide reamer. I've trimmed small amounts off the bottom of dies with carbide tooling and it works fine. HSS won't touch it.

If you're set on building this you NEED to get a reamer made for it and dies to match. Dies and brass are tapered. They are bigger at the bottom end. If your reamer is very large at the bottom end you MAY be able to get away with just running it in short. If its fairly close to the dimension of the brass you're gonna use your going to have problems.

Aaron

Thanks for that info and refreshing my memory. I've been out of this hobby for a few years, but now remember this discussed in years past that the sizer dies are hardened and smiths don't want to get involved. I just finished looking at PTG websight. Many reamers are NOT offered in carbide. Still no guarantees that a higher priced reamer in carbide will be something my smith wants to jack with. This issue of obtaining reloading dies for a shortened 20VT case is becoming a big detractor, as much as I think I'd like to do a shortened 20VT.

[rickiesrevenge]

Whidden will make 20 caliber dies off your fired cases or reamer print

[Nor Cal Mikie]

Sizer dies CAN be cut with a carbide cutter. I've had a few cut BUT, you still have to deal with the built in taper of the body. When you shorten the die length, the smaller OD of the body area is just moved down closer to the bottom and it's even smaller than when you started. I mentioned maybe going after it with to open it up a bit but I was thinking of using a hone. If it's hardened, you end up wasting your time. Maybe having a smaller carbide cutter that will fit inside the die so you could make the bottom a touch larger to eliminate the scuffing??

As far as how much recoil you'll end up with, you'll only know when you fire your first round. And somewhere around 10 grains of powder can't be that much. Pushing a 20 grain bullet, next to nothing.
What I was initially after was a short reloadable round with the least amount of recoil that I could get. My goal was to fire a round and see my hits on the target out to 100 yards. The 20 VT "short" came close but the 15 pound rig still had a little recoil movement so target was blurred. Anything out past 100 yards and the rig had a chance to settle back down so you could see the hits.
Even worse on a SP based rig. Not THAT BAD but not exactly what I was after.
A nice 20+ pound Martini rechambered for the 20 TCM or even in 17 caliber, and fitted with a good extraction system would fit the bill.

[hemiallen]

Nice dies
http://www.whiddengunworks.com/custom-reloading-dies/