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  #21  
Old 04-03-2018, 01:21 PM
Herb in Pa Herb in Pa is offline
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Or.........."NEVER TRY TO TEACH A PIG TO WHISTLE. IT WASTES YOUR TIME AND ANNOYS THE PIG"
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  #22  
Old 04-04-2018, 12:32 AM
GrocMax GrocMax is offline
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You can download the info from saami.org it explains the differences in methodology for both SAAMI and CIP (what NATO uses) pressure testing.

You can also look in the Western Powders load manual and see exactly how the two differing methods and pressure specs compare.

If you choose to ignore the info straight from the horses mouth, that is your choice.
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  #23  
Old 04-04-2018, 12:54 AM
MIBULLETS MIBULLETS is offline
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Bullet weight or twist rate doesn't matter. The bullets are seated appropriately for each cartridge differently according to the throat dimensions of the appropriate chamber. If you stuff a 5.56 with a long seated bullet meant for the 5.56 chamber into a 223 chamber you are most likely into the rifling. Once fired, there isn't the room for expansion that the cartridge is supposed to have. You are running the risk of higher pressure than even the 5.56 was designed for. Now many times reloaders seat bullets into the rifling for better accuracy in the 223, but the load is worked up appropriately for the chamber. Way different than off the shelf 5.56 ammo.
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  #24  
Old 04-04-2018, 04:47 AM
pocketshaver pocketshaver is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MIBULLETS View Post
Bullet weight or twist rate doesn't matter. The bullets are seated appropriately for each cartridge differently according to the throat dimensions of the appropriate chamber. If you stuff a 5.56 with a long seated bullet meant for the 5.56 chamber into a 223 chamber you are most likely into the rifling. Once fired, there isn't the room for expansion that the cartridge is supposed to have. You are running the risk of higher pressure than even the 5.56 was designed for. Now many times reloaders seat bullets into the rifling for better accuracy in the 223, but the load is worked up appropriately for the chamber. Way different than off the shelf 5.56 ammo.
as CIP .223 Remington is actually 5.56x45 NATO,,,, why the hell have I Never heard of a single .223 Remington only rifle going "kaboom" from using it..
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  #25  
Old 04-04-2018, 04:12 PM
ramos ramos is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pocketshaver View Post
as CIP .223 Remington is actually 5.56x45 NATO,,,, why the hell have I Never heard of a single .223 Remington only rifle going "kaboom" from using it..

If 'kaboom' is the determining factor for you, well, that's your choice. It does tell me that there really is nothing else I can offer you in the way of information.
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  #26  
Old 04-04-2018, 09:57 PM
MIBULLETS MIBULLETS is offline
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In all actuality they probably won't, at least for a while. Proof loads for the actions are loaded hotter yet I believe. But..that doesn't mean you can go shoot them for years and not expect some kind of damage or additional wear on the firearm.
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  #27  
Old 04-05-2018, 02:30 AM
dedogs dedogs is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pocketshaver View Post
as CIP .223 Remington is actually 5.56x45 NATO,,,, why the hell have I Never heard of a single .223 Remington only rifle going "kaboom" from using it..
Pocketshaver, You ever heard of Catholic Birth Control? dedogs
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  #28  
Old 04-05-2018, 03:40 AM
squirrel_slayer squirrel_slayer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MIBULLETS View Post
Bullet weight or twist rate doesn't matter. The bullets are seated appropriately for each cartridge differently according to the throat dimensions of the appropriate chamber. If you stuff a 5.56 with a long seated bullet meant for the 5.56 chamber into a 223 chamber you are most likely into the rifling. Once fired, there isn't the room for expansion that the cartridge is supposed to have. You are running the risk of higher pressure than even the 5.56 was designed for. Now many times reloaders seat bullets into the rifling for better accuracy in the 223, but the load is worked up appropriately for the chamber. Way different than off the shelf 5.56 ammo.
I don't usually chime in on these things usually just smile and keep moving but wow! this post is so full of fail it's crazy.

for starters bullet weight and twist do matter. heavier bullet takes more force to move basic physics add to that a heavier bullet is longer and "generally" has more bearing surface=more resistance (these new extreme VLD's have very small bearing surfaces...guess what...they typically can be driven faster than a equal weight bullet with a longer bearing surface..hmm interesting right?) now rate of twist the faster it is the more force it will take to engrave the bullet=greater resistance. resistance translates into more force to overcome which in our equation=more pressure for the same amount of work.

now the whole 5.56 bullet seated long in a .223 chamber has really stumped me further down you mention how people jam bullet but work up the load accordingly so it seems you have some grasp but not at the same time.

the freebore (distance to the lands) can be greater than 5.56 in some cases with a .223 chamber ("match" chambers come to mind) but theres more to it than just freebore. the lead angle and diameters of the throat can all play a part.

Lucky Gunner did some pressure testing with a .223 and 5.56 and while the pressures of their test weren't drastically different the .223 did have greater pressures than 5.56 did. another test I seen showed 48k psi with a 5.56 chamber and 62,000 with the same ammo same day in a .223. as they stated thats a 29% increase and walking the line as they say.

now one thing i've heard the PRS guys say is to sprinkle some water onto your ammo before chambering (to simulate rain) they state if the load is on the edge just a tiny drop of water can push it over and require the bolt to be smacked with a mallet to open up. imagine if they did this test on the above rifles. my guess is at best it would have been at proof level pressures. worst case it would have buldged the barrel and or scattered.

so moral of the story be smart. if you want to play with fire don't get upset if you get burned.

Last edited by squirrel_slayer; 04-05-2018 at 03:43 AM.
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  #29  
Old 04-06-2018, 02:29 AM
MIBULLETS MIBULLETS is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by squirrel_slayer View Post
I don't usually chime in on these things usually just smile and keep moving but wow! this post is so full of fail it's crazy.

for starters bullet weight and twist do matter. heavier bullet takes more force to move basic physics add to that a heavier bullet is longer and "generally" has more bearing surface=more resistance (these new extreme VLD's have very small bearing surfaces...guess what...they typically can be driven faster than a equal weight bullet with a longer bearing surface..hmm interesting right?) now rate of twist the faster it is the more force it will take to engrave the bullet=greater resistance. resistance translates into more force to overcome which in our equation=more pressure for the same amount of work.

now the whole 5.56 bullet seated long in a .223 chamber has really stumped me further down you mention how people jam bullet but work up the load accordingly so it seems you have some grasp but not at the same time.

the freebore (distance to the lands) can be greater than 5.56 in some cases with a .223 chamber ("match" chambers come to mind) but theres more to it than just freebore. the lead angle and diameters of the throat can all play a part.

Lucky Gunner did some pressure testing with a .223 and 5.56 and while the pressures of their test weren't drastically different the .223 did have greater pressures than 5.56 did. another test I seen showed 48k psi with a 5.56 chamber and 62,000 with the same ammo same day in a .223. as they stated thats a 29% increase and walking the line as they say.

now one thing i've heard the PRS guys say is to sprinkle some water onto your ammo before chambering (to simulate rain) they state if the load is on the edge just a tiny drop of water can push it over and require the bolt to be smacked with a mallet to open up. imagine if they did this test on the above rifles. my guess is at best it would have been at proof level pressures. worst case it would have buldged the barrel and or scattered.

so moral of the story be smart. if you want to play with fire don't get upset if you get burned.
By twist and bullet weight doesn't matter, I meant that both cartridges can fire them safely if the OAL and load is appropriate. Maybe not accurately, but that isn't the topic here. The OP didn't mention a match chamber or VLD bullets so I was speaking in general about a factory 223 chamber versus a standard 5.56 chamber. I didn't mention bearing surface but only contact with the rifling since that can affect pressure.

FWIW I do agree with the points in your reply.
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  #30  
Old 04-07-2018, 11:14 PM
pocketshaver pocketshaver is offline
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if you have a 62 or 69 grain bullet in a .223 Remington marked case, its the same damn overall length as that bullet in a 5.56 marked case..

we all agree


but if the companies can safely load it, and the guns can safely shoot it. then how can we still agree there is a difference between the cartridges?

it still comes down to why 38 special +p made TODAY is equivalent to standard 38 special loaded in 1970?
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