Saubier.com  



Go Back   Saubier.com > Saubier.com Forums > Small Caliber Discussion Board

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 10-20-2006, 02:33 AM
montdoug montdoug is offline
Supporting Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Bozeman Montana
Posts: 6,131
Default Rifle to rifle differences in load data a cause for caution.

I got my new Small Caliber News yesterday, good issue. Lot's of small caliber stuff. (Great article Alex).
In reading some of the articles as well as letters to the editor I was again struck by the same thing I find on the internet, rifle to rifle load data varies hugely and caution is always in order no matter what the source.
Two examples were, one the letter where an individual was getting 3,848fps with a 30 grain bullet in a .17 MachIV when in my MachIV 3,850ish is all of it with a 25 grainer.
The other was in Todds data on the VarTarg with a 32 grain bullet using N120. His top load was 19 grains and while I've only used N120 a little in my VarTarg I've used it enough to know 19 grains of the lot I have would be "way" over the top with a 32grainer in my rifle.
Lot to lot powder varience can't be overstated it would appear as are rifle to rifle variances.
As a long time reloader of bigger stuff it is obvious to me the smaller cases and smaller bores must be a lot more critical to such changes than I was used to in .223 and up stuff.
I can't get the image of Mntngoats rifle or Randy Mertas eye out of my mind.
The max load of my lot of H4198 in my Tact.20 for example using a 33 grainer is near three grains lighter than what I've seen published in a small caliber load book.

The stuff I read today just reinforced how different those writers experiences with their rifles and powder lots were from my own.
I guess we can't be too careful huh?
__________________
"Shoot safe!!"
montdoug

Last edited by montdoug; 10-20-2006 at 08:42 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 10-20-2006, 03:27 AM
foxhunter foxhunter is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: ozark mtns missouri
Posts: 3,038
Send a message via AIM to foxhunter
Default doug, i posted simular sentiments

about people wanting other peoples pet accuracy loads, the post went unanswered. i had a guy blow a 22 br into peaces with what was a safe accurate load in my rifle. he wasn't even party to the conversation, he just overheard it, wrote down the load and proceeded to load an hand grenade.

different powder lots, barrel twist, diameter, brand of brass, brand of bullet and chamber throats and the list goes on and on, can cause just wreck your hole day, not to mention your health.

don't be surprised if this is a short thread.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 10-20-2006, 03:50 AM
Cajun Blake Cajun Blake is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Youngsville, LA.
Posts: 774
Default

CAUTION CAUTION CAUTION

i couldn't agree with you more Doug !!! The small calibers are fun to shoot although the slightest reloading error can cause serious damage. I cringe everytime I see TK's data b/c i know many of his published loads are NOT possible in my rifles. TK's roots began in benchrest where many shooters push the envelope looking for the perfect balance between speed and accuracy.

In reality, the lust for speed in small calibers is like juggling chainsaws !! Not paying attention to the smallest of details can be catastrophic. One thing reloaders tend to overlook and is rarely mentioned in media print is how elevation, temperature, and humidity can lead to spikes in pressure. This is even more critical in small bore rifles. For example, TK lives in Ohio and his 17AH data may be safe at 68 degrees with 40% humidity. That same published data reloaded by myself in SW Louisiana or BCB over in Houston could be mind-blowing (literally) in 95 degree weather with 100% humidity.

Just my opinion as I concur with your POV Doug.

enjoy your weekend ,

CB <*)))>{
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 10-20-2006, 11:05 AM
Gary in Illinois Gary in Illinois is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Taylorville, Illinois
Posts: 1,658
Default Some people should not reload

I'm not sure that access to all the reloading information via the internet is a good thing for all reloaders. It seems that some people just don't "get it." They think that because a load was safe in one rifle (or at least someone SAID it was safe), it should work in their rifle. They don't understand that reloading data is not portable from one rifle to another.

A friend of mine loaded a Kimber Mach IV to pressues that blew the follower out of the magazine. He seemed to be happy that he reached the magic 4,000 fps level with a 25 grain bullet and doesn't realize how close he came to disaster.

He just can't seem to comprehend the relationship between bullet weight, small bores and small powder charge increases. He used to think nothing of increasing powder charges in .5 grain increments and used different brands of primers interchangeably when loading for the Mach IV. He ignored my warnings to move more slowly saying that he was STARTING at .5 grains below the maximum load he could find in whatever manual showed the most powder used in a given cartridge. Thankfully he no longer loads for the .17 caliber rounds and he still has his eyes and hands!

I know that I don't understand why seemingly identical rifles with identical barrels shooting identical loads can vary so widely in the resulting velocities. I do know that each rifle has its own requirements, that each one must be treated as unique and must have maximum loads tailored for it.

We all need to be reminded periodically of what can happen when we relax too much with this hobby or push the envelope too rapidly.

Gary

Last edited by Gary in Illinois; 10-20-2006 at 01:42 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 10-20-2006, 12:11 PM
Old Goat Old Goat is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Central Texas
Posts: 49
Default

Well put by all.
Reloading for the subs with loads taken from the internet or anywhere should start at minimum and be taken from there with a grain of salt. Or in the real world-- 1/10 grain of powder at a time. Life's to short to have it altered with a dumb mistake because Joe Blow said it would be O K..(Remimber his last name)
All things are NOT equal in the world of explosives!!!
Later
O.G.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 10-20-2006, 04:58 PM
Daryl Daryl is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Prince George, B.C. Canada
Posts: 3,929
Default

We must be always aware that we are dealing with sub-calibres. They are a law unto themselves. Witness my old .17AB for example, using Re#7, lot # 2500 - worked up from 2 gr. below the top load, went 3,940fps with 25gr. HP's.

: My new .17AckBee, when using some 3,800fps fireform loads, locked it up and went 4,150fps instead of 3,800fps.

They are to be respected for sure

.
: Gives me the willies every time a new shooter wants info on building up a wildcat along with loads he should use, and he hasn't loaded anything.
__________________
Daryl

Last edited by Daryl; 09-27-2014 at 09:57 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 10-20-2006, 05:19 PM
montdoug montdoug is offline
Supporting Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Bozeman Montana
Posts: 6,131
Default

It would seem we all agree.
I think one of the big offenders is a blind quest for a specific listed velocity. A guy reads a specific velocity attributed to a round somewhere so he goes to chasing it and doesn't pay attention to the basics.
Not to point fingers but on occasion a newly created round written about in Small Caliber News is touted as a round that gets "x" velocity and is a panacea of some kind to fill all varminting needs. An example would be the Tact.20 that was originally touted heavily as a 4,350fps round. That's 200fps faster than remotely possible to duplicate safely in my rifle whose working load is 4,150fps. At 500 yards with that extra 200fps with all the risk involved and with the rifle sighted dead on at 250 it would gain about 2 inches less drop. So for 2 inches at 500 yards a guy risks "explosions, shards, surgerys and eye patches" or worse, it makes no sense. If a guy has to have that two inches it's a perfect excuse for a new rifle, make mine a .20BR.
Everyone has their own opinion, mine is the ".20 VarTarg" while one of my all time rat rifle favorites in a huge way is still not an effective humane 500 yard rifle, maybe I need shooting lessons. The Tact.20 or .204 with 40grainers are, the .20 BR "SURE" is, the VarTarg with 32's isn't. Just my opinion and we all know about opinions.
When I go p-dog hunting I take multiple rifles like a golf bag full of clubs. I don't feel the need to make a round shoot way faster than it oughta. I like buying new guns!
I'll get off my soapbox now, "sorry"! I just don't want to see anyone hurt.
__________________
"Shoot safe!!"
montdoug

Last edited by montdoug; 10-21-2006 at 05:17 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 10-20-2006, 07:00 PM
Larry in VA Larry in VA is offline
Supporting Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Spring, Texas
Posts: 1,815
Exclamation Excellent Safety Info Here...

Maybe one of our esteemed Administrators could make this thread a SAFETY STICKY THINGY or somethin so it stays at top and any and all can see it. Who knows it may even save an eyeball or two.
Larry
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 10-20-2006, 07:07 PM
Dan C Dan C is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Cheyenne, WY
Posts: 489
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry in VA View Post
Maybe one of our esteemed Administrators could make this thread a SAFETY STICKY THINGY or somethin so it stays at top and any and all can see it. Who knows it may even save an eyeball or two.
Larry
Good stuff here guys, I agree this thread ought to remain at the top. Most of those that have been at this awhile have experienced an overload, and it's a scene best avoided. Please consider all data sources, use a chronograph when possible when working with new rifles or components, and start low.
__________________
--Dan C

"Special appetite skill combine with brain lentil size create the deadliest!"

Last edited by Dan C; 10-20-2006 at 07:40 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 10-22-2006, 06:06 PM
RareBear RareBear is offline
Supporting Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Cardington, Ohio, USA, 3rd Rock from the Sun, Milky Way Galaxy
Posts: 951
Default

Regarding Todd Kindler's load data and generally speaking, a lot of the data Todd puts in black and white mentions the use of SPL bullet lubricant. This may account for the higher powder charges (not neccessarily higher velocities) reported as compared to naked bullet use.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 02:26 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.