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  #11  
Old 01-24-2022, 01:37 PM
ray h ray h is offline
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TOU- I agree but the big guys won't, they would have to acknowledge Todd's design.
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  #12  
Old 01-24-2022, 02:09 PM
Nor Cal Mikie Nor Cal Mikie is offline
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First off, I don't buy factory loaded ammo except 22 Rim fire. I ROLL MY OWN!!
Not one of my rigs will chamber factory loaded ammo except my gas guns.
Either wildcats or snug SAAMI fits. The less you move your brass, the better.

Tried the 20 VT, made my own brass out of .221 Remington Fireball. Even tried making it out of .223. Not impressed.
Sold my .234 neck custom reamer and went back to my .221 Fireball.
Still got a bunch of loaded ammo and brass to get rid of. Loaded will probably get pulled down and parted out.
So no factory loaded ammo? Hornady, Remington, Winchester,etc.? That makes it a Wildcat till someone (one of the big boys) sells "Factory Loaded" Ammo.
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  #13  
Old 01-24-2022, 03:06 PM
TOU TOU is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ray h View Post
TOU- I agree but the big guys won't, they would have to acknowledge Todd's design.
As usual, I think you are right Ray.

I spoke to Todd several years back (2010?) & IIRC I don't think he still had the rights to it. I think that it had passed hands several times & even more as Big Green continued(s) to change hands. It ended up in the hands of one of the Venture Capital vulture groups who rarely realize what they have.

I was actually also speaking to Big Green execs back then, about building rifles and ammo in 17 & 221 FB cartridges that they already owned. I got next to nowhere with that. It's been too long now and I really don't know/remember where/who to talk to anymore.

Back in 2010, I was also chatting with Jason Morton about producing CZ 527's in VT as well as 17 FB. I thought they were actually going to move forward with the 17 FB but it seems not on that either. On the VT...they said no unless it became SAAMI approved which it isn't and they weren't interested in funding that.

Again with all the latest wonder cartridges that have been released that really don't answer any questions that were being asked (beyond propaganda and profits), I wonder why they don't address the ones that are being requested. Then again, small-caliber & varminting is likely a small niche in the eyes of the big boys and VC groups. It is all a nice thought...maybe someday.

Not for not, but I came close to building & buying a 527 VT on many occasions but never got around to it as it was redundant to what I had in performance. But...I still have always wanted one and think it is one of the most efficient all-around varmint rounds. For now, though, I just keep banging away with my Badger on the infrequent occasions that I get to shoot these days (I think that will be finally changing in the next 12 months though...shooting.) as it mirrors much of the VT's charm. Hope you are well!
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  #14  
Old 01-25-2022, 11:04 AM
JSH JSH is offline
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As mentioned until it is legit, SAMMI, I don’t see how anyone could make ammo for the VT with any success. The variations in wildcats no matter how subtle they seem can and do cause a lot of discussion/problems. Think not?

Look at all the wildcats that were available for the TC Contender platform in its heyday. A favorite of mine, the 7TCU is a heck of a good cartridge. Yet if you can find two barrels that the same brass and ammo would work in, you better buy a lotto ticket.

I patiently await a 20VT prefit. My very first go around with it. My plan is for 32-34 grain use. We will have to see with the 40’s. It has big expectations from me as so many speak highly of it. I am well pleased with the 17FB and 20 grain bullets.

Found it interesting that the one and only negative response to the 20VT showed up in this thread and he went with the parent case instead. I on the other hand didn’t care for the 221 at all. To eachs own.
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  #15  
Old 01-25-2022, 12:49 PM
ray h ray h is offline
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It's a very valid point about SAAMI but it's been done before. The 22-250 is prime example, God know how many variations there was for it but Remington pulled it off.
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  #16  
Old 01-25-2022, 04:03 PM
Rick in Oregon Rick in Oregon is offline
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A couple of years ago, I spent some time in John Nosler's office extolling the virtues of the 20VT in hopes of them offering it under their own banner. As it is not SAAMI approved (or CIP), and the cost of getting it approved is abhorrent, and the fact that they concentrate on "bigger" big game cartridges, there just was not much interest shown.

I opined that they already have their own brass case manufacturing set up here, provide their own bullets in .20 caliber, it would be a 'no-brainer', but alas, if it does not go BOOOOM, they are just not interested, period.

And as has been noted here, we are a very small niche in the gunny world, so I've completely given up on the hope that a local entity would jump in and legitimize the little 20VT any time soon.

Good thng I've got 1,200 20VT cases formed and in my rat round rotation, as I shoot the snot out of mine every rat season here. As usual for this pursuit, depending on factory rounds for what we do is pure folly; they'll disappoint you every time.....when it counts.
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  #17  
Old 01-25-2022, 11:53 PM
L.Sherm L.Sherm is offline
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They should have listened Rick, obviously there idea of the 20 Nosler was a complete failure even getting it saami approved.
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  #18  
Old 01-26-2022, 02:02 AM
Bill K Bill K is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by L.Sherm View Post
They should have listened Rick, obviously there idea of the 20 Nosler was a complete failure even getting it saami approved.
I really believe if they had done the 20 VT, instead of the 20 Nosler, they would have had a gold mine. But that was the choice they made. I bet they still could make a real go of a run of 20 Vt's.
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  #19  
Old 01-26-2022, 04:36 AM
JSH JSH is offline
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Ray, point taken, but it isn’t 1965. Folks were a bit more mechanically inclined and there was some common sense around as well back then.

The 20 Nosler, OMG. What goes across some desk in the corporate offices shocks me. I think the 20 Nosler is SAMMI spec’d? You can get dies, I have seen load data. Yet there is NO brass to be had, it’s longer than the 22Nosler. You can’t make it from anything.

Years ago a sizable number of guys I ran around with were doing all kinds of stuff with the 223 and the 222 mag. We really wanted a basic case. Contacted Starline.
They gave us an option. We all got together and came up with the funds and were ready to get underway. Got with Starline again. This time we waited about a month. They came back and pretty much tripled all the numbers!
We would have had to pay for ALL of the dies, which in turn were their property to keep. The prices on those went up about 5X original quote
We had to make and pay for an order of 500K up front, with no guarantee of any time frame!

In all of this I recall in email or meeting, they said they would never ever make bottle neck brass. Fast forward about 12-14 years………….then just a couple of years ago I was scrolling through their offerings, 223 Basic WTH? Now we have a “new” cartridge.350 legend. It had been done prior to that without the stupid .355 diameter to boot.
Why wouldn’t Starline offer 221 brass? They make everything thing else on the case size. I don’t know why limited runs of 221 and 17FB would be out, along with a semi formed 20 Vartarg offering.

Look at the poor 17FB. They had to do some minor changing to make it theirs from the MIV, yet it is new.

CZ’s goofy “upgrade” and cartridge offerings didn’t do us any favors, and I am not a huge CZ fan.

I would be more inclined to run the 20 Vartarg across Ruger. A Ruger Micro would sell.

It’s late and enough of my palaver and rant
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  #20  
Old 02-01-2022, 01:50 AM
TOU TOU is offline
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Not to get too far off-topic & not for not but I went and found some old emails related to this with various corporate individuals & thought I would share for FYI. In the end, it was as clear as mud and I gave up on my conversations with all & hoped it would sort itself out. 12 years later...we are in about the boat as back in 2010.

4-22-2010: Spoke to Ward at Dakota Arms as to who officially owns the rights to the .20 VarTarg. Ward told me that they do NOT have the rights to it and that NO ONE owns the rights to it; ANYONE can build rifles in it. including them. Of course, he mentioned that they had worked on it extensively with Todd Kindler waaaaay back when. (Duh!) Now I know the name "VarTarg" is a registered trademark and likely Todd Kindler used to own those rights??

4-23-2010: I asked Todd directly who owns the rights etc. He wouldn't tell me except to say that he was not comfortable talking about it. He told me to search for the answers from inquiries with Remington & their parent Freedom Arms as well as subsidiaries like Dakota.

4-24-2010: NO ONE seems to own the VarTarg rights from my viewpoint, ALL say it is open game on this cartridge. BUT...if it is built as an ammunition cartridge itself from Remington it would bare a Remington coined name...not VarTarg which essentially invalidates any registering of that name as Trademark by Todd or anyone else. I feel bad for Todd & would like to see him benefit for his hard work, but it is out of my hands.

4-24-2010: As to the licensing of the .20 VT...it is in the hands of Big Green/Dakota and their parent company. I think Todd can shed more light on that than I can...sometimes it seems he can be so evasive about that part though...as to what he knows and will tell. I did talk to him today and gave him the contacts I gave you for the Head of R&D for Remington Ammunition.

BTW, Remington told me they didn't give a rats @$$...about who built them and said anyone could. Heck, there are hundreds or more of these built custom every year. The .20 VT maybe one of the top wildcats built and shot every year...I would even say over the .17 Ackley Hornet.
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