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  #11  
Old 10-24-2006, 02:56 PM
457ciSBC 457ciSBC is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RareBear View Post
Regarding Todd Kindler's load data and generally speaking, a lot of the data Todd puts in black and white mentions the use of SPL bullet lubricant. This may account for the higher powder charges (not neccessarily higher velocities) reported as compared to naked bullet use.


I asked Todd if SPL behaves the same way as moly concerning pressures and powder charges and he told me no.

Mike
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  #12  
Old 10-24-2006, 07:43 PM
muzr257 muzr257 is offline
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One of the things that most people for get with reloading manuals is the MOST critical word- guide - its not the law!
My boss n I both had 220 swift shooting factory norma loads - mine 24 inch barrel with his 26 inch - mine chronoyd 125fps faster with two inch shorter barrel!
When you translate that into handloading how much more powder would have been needed to match velocities in his rifle?
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  #13  
Old 10-25-2006, 03:46 PM
Daryl Daryl is offline
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SPL or Lee wax don't seem to change anything except for the fouling level in some guns.
: Todd's loads are usualy run to the absolute maximiun and some (a lot of) guns won't allow loads that hot. My old .17AB was different, and allowed his AckBee loads, but gave me another 50fps to 100fps over his to boot, without hurting the brass. Brass longevity is the final test on maximum loads. If the brass continues to hold primers, the load is demed to be safe. In many cases, this is right on the ragged edge and purdence demands a reduction to cover unforseen problems that do seem to crop up.
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  #14  
Old 10-26-2006, 07:35 PM
Chucker Chucker is offline
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Default Lets make a list of things which affect bullet velocity and pressure.

Some of the things which cause bullet velocity differences are.

Primers, (lot dependent)
Powder, (lot dependent)
Powder, extreme or not (temp. sensitive)
Powder measured the same, on a calibrated scale or balance.
Bore tightness and is it tapered, which direction.
Bore smoothness.
Firing pin impact strength.
Throat area of the barrel. freebore or not.
Bullet Jump to the rifling.
Moly on bullet or something else
Barrel Length.
Type of steel and condition of the bore itself.
Bullet diameters and shape.
Distance to the chronograph, actual muzzle velocity or measured at 10 ft.

You start to see why the puzzled look on someones face when they say, "I can not get the same velocity as you do, even though its the same load.

Do not forget these are high performance rounds and need to be treated with respect. Cause a .5 grain change in a Mach IV is a 2.5% change in volume. To get the same change in volume on a 7 STW you would have to add 2 grains of powder. Are we seeing the perspective here.

There have been some great words of wisdom provided in the following threads. If we need to discuss some of the variables or if I have missed some please add to the list.

Your friend, Chucker.

Last edited by Chucker; 11-01-2006 at 04:25 PM. Reason: Added to list.
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  #15  
Old 10-28-2006, 02:55 AM
Daryl Daryl is offline
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Temperature whether Extreme Powders used or not still a difference.
: Atmospheric conditions/pressure
: Elevation
: straightness of cap beak
: deleted due to political nature
: Actually chronographed or guessed at due to book claims
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  #16  
Old 11-05-2006, 12:10 PM
sicero sicero is offline
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Default I can't always bring myself to totaly believing my

Cronograph sometimes. Most of them are fairly cheap pieces of equipment for what we are asking them to do. Can we believe they are all set up correctly. Are there as many fast Cronographs as there are fast barrels? Just something to think about. Kenny
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  #17  
Old 11-05-2006, 04:33 PM
Alex Alex is offline
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Default Kenny, Todd uses a...

... Oehler most of the time. I don't think that he is over/under reporting his velocities. Some of the others that you read hyper velocities from may.

Dr. Oehler is just about ready to go out of the "home" chrony business. He's said that the newly available clocks are so good and inexpensive that the really low cost chronies are almost always on the money. Of course, there is lots of room for error in the very short timing distance of the Shooting Chrony units, but they are so easy to set up that they are virtually taking over the market. Locally, we have seen that on models of varying vintage do give as much as 150 fps difference.

I use my Beta Master when I'm working up loads, but my Oehler when I want to post the results. They seldom disagree.

Alex
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  #18  
Old 11-05-2006, 05:22 PM
Hammer Hammer is offline
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Default How big

Do not doubt there are differences in rifle to rifle made with the same barrel and reamer.

But do question if we make too much of it.

During World Wars we issued million of Garands and Springfields and bizillions of rounds of ammo. Have not heard of major issues of malfunctions.

In some matches, rifles and ammo are issued randomly at the range to shooters and still they are able to hit the targets.

Not talking about setting world benchrest records.

So how big are the differences between two rifles both meeting SAAMI spec chambers ?

On a slightly different note... Years ago ran multivariable tests (MVT) changing bullet manufacturer, bullet weight, bullet style, bullet seating depth, powder make, powder charge, powder charge technique, primer brand, primer strength, brass mfg, rifle mfg, etc. All loads were safe and did not show excess pressure. Not recommending this for other folks. What was interesting was that all bullets hit in the black on a 100 yard target. Could not have blamed a miss on a 200 yard buck given the observed bullet placement variation.

On the other hand, with a 460 Wby moved the bullet placement over 18 inches at 100 yards just by screwing on and off the factory muzzle brake.


Again, totally acknowledge differences, just want to know how big they are as measured.

Last edited by Hammer; 11-05-2006 at 05:38 PM.
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  #19  
Old 11-05-2006, 06:29 PM
foxhunter foxhunter is offline
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the big deal is when a guy looses an eye or other parts of his body. remember what this forum deals with here, small calibers, usually sub calibers. .2 of a grain can make one of these rounds go from ok to oh my god, a bullet or primer change can have the same effect. we haven't even talked about powder lots, take 2200, there are several lots out there, with most of the latter being faster than the original.
try this scenario, a guy see's a load listed, he decides to try it in his custom tight chambered, zero leade. so he backs it off 5% switches to his favorite primer and his extra thick formed lapua brass and he has the aa 2200 that's 10% faster than the original lot, he also decides to switch from a berger to a vmax bullet. oh yea i forgot to mention the fella posting the load had been shooting p-dog and 1" of throat was burned out of his barrel.
draw your own conclusions as to what the big deal could be. remember there are a lot of newbies out there gleaning information from the internet, as well as guys that have reloaded 20 rounds for their deer rifle each year, all of a sudden they want to build rifles, reload , shoot p-dogs and do the thing the big boys do.

as to the military rifles in war, they just didn't swap loads with each other.
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  #20  
Old 11-05-2006, 06:58 PM
sicero sicero is offline
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Smile One more thing we must consider.

The inernet game is the only one where you keep your own score. Kind of like honor poker. After I got on to it I only lost the first game. Kenny
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