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  #11  
Old 06-04-2022, 06:40 AM
georgeld georgeld is offline
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INTEL6:

Did you quench those hot cases in cold water??

Like most argue no end to do.

Which is WRONG!!!

Do NOT Quench, let air cool and they will stay soft.
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  #12  
Old 06-04-2022, 02:17 PM
Intel6 Intel6 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by georgeld View Post
INTEL6:

Did you quench those hot cases in cold water??

Like most argue no end to do.

Which is WRONG!!!

Do NOT Quench, let air cool and they will stay soft.


No, I used a Bench Source annealer and let them air cool.
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  #13  
Old 06-04-2022, 04:19 PM
Daryl Daryl is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by georgeld View Post
INTEL6:

Did you quench those hot cases in cold water??

Like most argue no end to do.

Which is WRONG!!!

Do NOT Quench, let air cool and they will stay soft.

Quenching them in water does not harden them, George. They are not carbon steel.
I have always quenched them in water and they anneal perfectly as long as you don't let them get too hot.
Otherwise they are softened too much.
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  #14  
Old 06-04-2022, 04:30 PM
Bayou City Boy Bayou City Boy is offline
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I got cracked shoulders until I increased the fire forming load for my .17AH.

Generally a stiff load cures a lot of fire forming issues. Once and done........

-BCB
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  #15  
Old 06-04-2022, 09:20 PM
Kevin Gullette Kevin Gullette is offline
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Lightbulb Age hardening.....

.......depending on storage conditions and number of years........is hard to cure.

Kevin
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  #16  
Old 06-04-2022, 11:37 PM
JDHasty JDHasty is online now
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IIRC from college the mechanism of age embrittlement in brass is related to dezincification, where as work hardening results crystal size growth. Annealing is not going to address the former. Dezincification the zinc is removed from the brass alloy and copper migrates and plates to the surface, again IIRC.

Chemical tarnish removers can also result in dezincification. In age hardening I believe results from an oxidation reaction that causes the dezincification. The atomic bonds of the zinc to the copper are broken and a the zinc forms a zinc oxide.

To the best of my knowledge annealing is only applicable when restoring work hardened brass, that is not otherwise compromised, to a more malleable state.

This is all from memory and I may not be correct in the details.

Last edited by JDHasty; 06-04-2022 at 11:45 PM.
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  #17  
Old 06-05-2022, 12:01 AM
JDHasty JDHasty is online now
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I 100% agree with others who have posted that mild loads frequently are to be avoided when fire forming cases. Any supposed or potential benefit never seems to materialize and problems ensue with regularity.
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  #18  
Old 06-05-2022, 12:37 AM
TinMan TinMan is offline
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Cartidge Brass cannot be hardened by quenching in water. When I anneal, I just let it air cool. Work hardening brass will make it more brittle, and can result in cracking. Embrittlement in brass can be caused by ammonia compounds, like some polishes. Back in WWI, season cracking in brass was caused by storing ammo in the stables, where it the mules and horses peed on it.

About twn years ago, I have seen new brass cases that were still pretty hard, even after factory annealing. I experienced that in new Winchester brass in 243 Win and 220 Swift. I annealed it myself and it all worked fine. Back then, Winchester had moved their ammunition plant and it must have gotten their process a bit out of spec. For what it is worth, I am a degreed metallurgist.
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  #19  
Old 06-05-2022, 01:19 AM
JDHasty JDHasty is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TinMan View Post
Cartidge Brass cannot be hardened by quenching in water. When I anneal, I just let it air cool. Work hardening brass will make it more brittle, and can result in cracking. Embrittlement in brass can be caused by ammonia compounds, like some polishes. Back in WWI, season cracking in brass was caused by storing ammo in the stables, where it the mules and horses peed on it.

About twn years ago, I have seen new brass cases that were still pretty hard, even after factory annealing. I experienced that in new Winchester brass in 243 Win and 220 Swift. I annealed it myself and it all worked fine. Back then, Winchester had moved their ammunition plant and it must have gotten their process a bit out of spec. For what it is worth, I am a degreed metallurgist.
Winchester replaced 500 243 cases for me that the first 50 split the first time I fired them. It was about that time and this was my second experience with bad brass. The first was 22-250 cases that did the same thing and were replaced.
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  #20  
Old 06-05-2022, 12:33 PM
flyrod flyrod is offline
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+1 on the annealing recommendation. If you still get cracks, try annealing "more" i.e. to a higher temperature. If the metal is glowing a visible dull red in low light, that is about the right temperature. This may be hard to observe when using a torch.

The use of water is to stop the process or limit it. You want the case head to stay hard, and the neck/shoulder to be soft. Some people stand the cases up in a tray of water and run a torch over them. This keeps the heads cool. Dropping a case in water keeps the heat in the neck from transferring to the head. In most situations water is not needed, because the head has enough mass that it will not get hot enough to anneal. The WSSM is one example of where annealing can be tricky, particularly with a torch, because the case is short and thick. I use induction to quickly apply enough heat do the job without heating the entire case.

Cracks are usually due to work hardening or defects/grain structure of the manufacturing process. Stress corrosion cracking, hydrogen embrittlement, neutron embrittlement, mercury inclusion, etc. are not generally a problem for hand loaders.
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