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Old 05-25-2020, 02:21 PM
WmCook WmCook is offline
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Default 17CCM / 17 Velociraptor / 7.5 x 28

First a thanks to Bob, GL Wenzl and others for the previous posts I found in the archives on this topic.

My project will be based off of a Cooper 17CCM (17-73). Although clip fed, the rifle was never used as a repeater as it was used mostly as a single shot on Pdogs. I tried to use it as a squirrel rifle and that was passed along in Small Caliber News Spring 2002. As a squirrel rifle it failed. Even at 2,800, or 2,900 fps the varmint bullets caused too much meat damage.

On a random 17CCM google search this week I found some of Bob and GLW’s work with the 17VR. Totally happenchance I assure you. After reading what was available I'm starting to think that it may be possible to have both a varmint rifle and a squirrel rifle if I used a switch barrel design having one barrel chambered in 17VR and the other chambered in 7.5 x 28. And the availability of brass would solve the Achilles heel of the CCM. First up is the 17VR.

Going in I have the following assumptions.
  1. Bolt face modifications not required.
  2. Extractor modifications not required.
  3. Fire-forming is straight forward.
  4. Kevin Weaver (Weaver Rifles, Peyton CO) has a reamer to rechamber the 17CCM to 17VM and that was the person who rechambered Bob’s CCM back in ’06.

Questions
  1. Is once fired brass the only option? I believe that’s true because I can’t find virgin brass anywhere. If used is the only option, what manufacturer of brass would you recommended?
  2. Is the 17VR case sizing die used as the initial sizing die to take the 7.5 down to 4.4 (just as the 17 Ackley Hornet is used on Hornet brass to do the initial sizing)?
  3. Where do you go to find sizing and seating dies?
  4. What clip modifications are needed to feed the rimless case? The only information I found on this was on the Accuratereloading.com site and it that was authored by Bughole.
  5. Where do you find an action tool for the Cooper Model 38 (to take barrels off and on)?

Other than the availability and finagling of the brass, the 17 CCM is a more fun than I can begin to describe. The CCM has the recoil and the report of bb gun but instead you're pushing a 20 grain >3,000 fps and on a calm day you can reach out 250 yards. I've spent hundreds of hours with this cartridge and enjoyed every moment I spent with it. On my “fun to work with” meter, The Cooper 17CCM is in the top three rifles that I have ever owned. That said, you can’t deny that brass is the CCM's Achilles heel.

Brass from Schroeder brass is what's kept the CCM's alive and I want to thank him for that. He does excellent work and is a pleasure to work with. I must have over 300 pieces of Schroeder brass and another 200 to 300 pieces of assorted brass. Back in the day Saubier and I were trading communications about where to find brass. That’s a story onto itself. Part of the mystique of the 17CCM is looking for brass.

But my 17CCM has little value even with the 500+ pieces of brass (four flavors by my count: original turned Cooper brass, Fiocchi, Schroeder and the one shot Cooper brass (not actually one shot. Under 2,900 fps I've reloaded the brass up to 20 times. Your mileage may vary. BE CAREFUL), brass. Like someone said in an earlier string. Dan was just 10 years ahead of his time with the CCM.

Now how about this for irony. About the time I bought the 17CCM in '99, I happened to find a 7.5 x 28 case laying on the ground at my gun club (St Louis Benchrest Club). Didn't have a clue what it was but since I was heavily into 17's and 20's it was too cute to leave on the gound. I vaguely recall having conversations with Kindler about it that time as to what a neat case the FN 7.5 was for small caliber wildcats. Now flash forward decades later. On the random 17CCM Google search last week I came upon Bob and GL Welzl response to questions on the forum about the CCM that referred to a 4.4 x 28 based off of the FN 7.5 x 28 case.

Strike me with lightening if this if the following is not true. After reading the post I went to my shop and picked up the same piece of brass that I picked off the ground back around 2001 and just last Friday I slipped it into the bolt face on my CCM and it fit like a glove. It must be destiny.
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Old 05-25-2020, 02:52 PM
moorepower moorepower is offline
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Looks like it duplicates the .17 WSM. If the wind is not blowing it will reach out further than 250. You should enjoy it!
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Old 05-25-2020, 03:10 PM
RareBear RareBear is offline
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Some folks find the HK 4.3x30 case a little easier to work with, i.e., stouter case. It is used in the 17 VHA, very similar to 17x28.
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Old 05-25-2020, 06:29 PM
Daryl Daryl is offline
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In my .17AH, a case full of Trail Boss ('bout 3.5gr.) and 25gr. HP Hornady made 1,845fps and tiny .2" groups at 50 yards. I did not try it further, but was Fire Forming cases with that load. On some, the shoulders were not filled out perfectly as the pressure was a bit low.
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Old 05-25-2020, 07:12 PM
WmCook WmCook is offline
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I think I remember Foxhunter saying something about a 4 something by 30 as being a better case than the FN 7.5 And I’ve seen a lot of chatter about the coatings on the 7.5 cases. Some say it comes right off and others say it has to be burned (&#128563 Off. Probably somewhere in the middle is the truth with a lot of variations between manufacturers. I’m gonna have to research the 4.3 x 30 you mentioned and I’ll let you know.

That I can recall, I never tried slowing down the CCM any less than about 2,800. That said I’ve spent many hours working up subsonic loads in about everything from K Hornets to 7.62 x 54. Just never thought about using spit loads in the CCM. In a K Hornet 2 grains of Unique will push a 44 grain cast bullet 1,000 FPS. So that makes using pistol powder Not impossible but a little tricky with the CCM and 20 grain Bullets. Heck if all else fails you could just drop down from 8 grains of 1680 one or two tenths at a time and shoot 3 shot groups, watch the standard deviation and see when it starts to spray.

But the thought of having an unlimited amount of brass that will fit the bolt face on the little 38 Cooper action is like relief from a 20 year old headache. ‘99 through 2001 were tough times for CCM fans. Not sure when Schroeder started providing brass but Jim and I just might have been his first customers? That’s a guess, not a fact.

And if anyone has suggestions for forming/sizing/seating dies and an action tool for the 38 Cooper (switch barrel design still in mind) I’d appreciate it.

And while I’m making a wish list, I would love to find someone who has a takeoff 22CCM barrel they would want to sell.

Thanks for all of the suggestions and encouragement. Bill.
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Old 05-25-2020, 07:47 PM
WmCook WmCook is offline
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Might be 4.6 x 30 Rarebear?

And I have a box of 25 grain V Max on the shelf just for that reason. Gotta check the twist rate on the CCM. I’ve heard tons of good things about trail boss. Bout time I drop the hammer and add another bottle of powder to the shelf.

But.......an endless supply of brass....that fits the little Cooper action....🤔.
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Old 05-25-2020, 09:20 PM
foxhunter foxhunter is offline
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4.6x30 brass is available or at least was and that is what I use these days. it is rated higher in pressure then the 5.7x28, you keep listing it as 7.5x28. as to dies I got a 5.7x28 sizer and had it converted to a bushing die by Christensen dies.

if you don't have it , pm me a email address I will send you the small caliber news article on the 17 velociraptor.
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Old 05-25-2020, 10:07 PM
WmCook WmCook is offline
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Will do. And yep.......got crossed up on saying 7.5 instead of 5.7. Appreciate the correction.

Checked the Cooper this afternoon. It really appreciated the attention. My barrel has a one in 10 twist and the trigger pull is 2.5 lbs. So either the 17CCM or the 4.4. X 28 should stabilize 25 grain.
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Old 05-26-2020, 03:36 AM
foxhunter foxhunter is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WmCook View Post
Will do. And yep.......got crossed up on saying 7.5 instead of 5.7. Appreciate the correction.

Checked the Cooper this afternoon. It really appreciated the attention. My barrel has a one in 10 twist and the trigger pull is 2.5 lbs. So either the 17CCM or the 4.4. X 28 should stabilize 25 grain.
mine stabilized the 25's, at least the 25 hornady hp. the 25 vmax didn't exist when I had mine.
I am surprised George hasn't chimed in!
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Old 05-26-2020, 08:34 PM
WmCook WmCook is offline
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Foxhunter I sent a PM to you regarding the article you wrote in SCN.

My search for 4.6x30 brass hasn't turned up anything. I see tracks from the bulk purchase made by the forum back in '08, but I havn't found anything available right now.

The only thing I found (and its a long shot at best) that might work is from Arms Unlimited and they're selling 2,400 rounds of 4.6x30 Sellier & Bellot 40 grain FMJ for $965.

If there were enough people that were willing to share the cost, I might be willing to make the purchase, pull the bullets and dump the powder. I only need about 250. But I know nothing about the quality of the Sellier and Bellot brass and I don't play the lottery.

The quality of used 5.7x28 brass is confusing to me. I've found a bunch of warning about how many times (meaning few) some of the 5.7x28 brass can be loaded and the issue of crushed cases upon sizing. Maybe thats why Foxhunter and others went to the 4.6x30 brass, but that's a guess.

I did find loaded 5.7x28 Federal American Eagle ammunition for $50 a hundred. As with the Sellier & Bellot 4.6x30, I have no idea of the quality of the Federal American Eagle brass.
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