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Old 06-30-2014, 09:17 PM
xring xring is offline
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Default Three Factory 17s Article in Handloader

Just received the latest Issue of Handloader Magazine ( Aug 2014 / No 291 ) which contained an Article on the 17 Hornet , 17 Fireball , and 17 Remington by John Barness . My experience in Loading for the Mach IV is very limited , so the Article was interesting to me . Not sure what you old hands will think of it , but might be worth a look . There was some mention of the various relatively new 17 Rimfires too . Loading Data was given for a CZ 1:9 Twist 17 Hornet , Rem 700 1:9 Twist 17 Fireball , and a Rem 700 1:10 Twist 17 Remington .....mostly for the 20 and 25 Grain Bullets . Some interesting stuff on Forming Cases from more easily available Brass , etc . Comment was made that TAC is relatively Temperature insensitive and also contains a de-coppering Agent which is new news to me . It was also stated that Hornadys Factory 17 Hornet Ammo uses a special blend of Superformance Powder not available to Handloaders .
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Old 06-30-2014, 09:33 PM
Bill K Bill K is offline
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Default Three factory 17 articles

Now for my handloader to arrive, so I can read it. There is also a couple of articles in the latest VHA magazine on 17's also. Bill K
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  #3  
Old 06-30-2014, 09:39 PM
TinMan TinMan is offline
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xring, I read that article last night. According to Western Powders, TAC is supposed to be the same as AA2495, but I thought AA2230 was the powder for the 17 FB. I had been using H322 for my Mach IV, although lots of guys also like VV133, but since I have plenty of AA2230, I will have to give it a go. For the 17 Remington, I have been happy with W760 and W748, but am doing some load development with IMR4320. Don't have a 17 Hornet yet, but as I recall the 17 Hornet guys here are liking AA1680 for it. Guess I will go back and reread the article to see if I pick up anything else.
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Old 06-30-2014, 10:06 PM
xring xring is offline
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TinMan .... in the Fireball , Benchmark gave the smallest Groups with both the 20 Grain VMax and 25 Grain Berger ..... Velocities were around 4000 FPS for the 20 Grainers . In the 17 Rem . CFE 223 and Benchmark gave the best Groups with 20 Grain Nosler Varmageddons with Velocities around 4300 FPS . In my very limited Loading for the Mach IV , my Cooper much preferred VV133 to H322 which really surprised the heck out of me because of the top notch Accuracy I've seen in many 223s with H322 and all sorts of Bullet Brands .

Last edited by xring; 06-30-2014 at 10:11 PM.
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  #5  
Old 06-30-2014, 11:06 PM
Chickenthief Chickenthief is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xring View Post
Just received the latest Issue of Handloader Magazine ( Aug 2014 / No 291 ) which contained an Article on the 17 Hornet , 17 Fireball , and 17 Remington by John Barness . My experience in Loading for the Mach IV is very limited , so the Article was interesting to me . Not sure what you old hands will think of it , but might be worth a look . There was some mention of the various relatively new 17 Rimfires too . Loading Data was given for a CZ 1:9 Twist 17 Hornet , Rem 700 1:9 Twist 17 Fireball , and a Rem 700 1:10 Twist 17 Remington .....mostly for the 20 and 25 Grain Bullets . Some interesting stuff on Forming Cases from more easily available Brass , etc . Comment was made that TAC is relatively Temperature insensitive and also contains a de-coppering Agent which is new news to me . It was also stated that Hornadys Factory 17 Hornet Ammo uses a special blend of Superformance Powder not available to Handloaders .
Widley used in powder for artillery shells.
Was leadoxide and tin but of lately bismuth is used instead in this lead free times.
The idea is that the powdered metal additive in the powder melts and amalgamate with the copper in the barrel under firing. The resulting "metal blend" is soft enough for the copper bullet to push it out the front at next shot. Sort of like cleaning a leaded barrel with a few jacketed bullets.
Less than 1% is added.
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  #6  
Old 07-01-2014, 01:36 AM
xring xring is offline
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Chickenthief , that's interesting . I wonder why those agents are not incorporated in all Powders or maybe these agents are only compatible with certain Powder Bases ? Just curious : is there much Reloading , Hunting , or Target shooting in Denmark ? Are there any Varmints .... running around Denmark ?
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  #7  
Old 07-01-2014, 12:27 PM
Chickenthief Chickenthief is offline
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Artillery is optimised for performance and shot count is in the low 100's before a barrel is gone. So big hot flame and loads of erosion in the barrel, thats why the evaporation/melting of the additive works. In many cases it is litterally just a sheet of tinfoil in the powder bag.

The Germans made a 800mm~32inch cannon during WWII. The shells were numbered and increased in size for every shot and by 58 shots it had to go back to Krupp for relining.
But then again it shot a 5 ton shell at 2700fps and used @ 1 ton of powder for every shot. Now thats heat and erosion if i ever saw it!
http://gizmodo.com/5821389/the-largest-gun-ever-built

Gun powder for small arms have all sorts of additives amongst other flame retardants to keep burning temp low and barrel erosion at a minimum. Low flame temp means that the proces becomes less effective.

Gun powder as we know it is 2-3 things:
Base = Nitrocellulose
doping = Nitroglycerine
Doping = Nitroguanidine

Then there is all the unknown additived to get optimum performance without all the misnomers.
Flame retardants
Coating to control burning speed
Lubricants
Antistatic retardants and the list goes on.

********************
Denmark is but a greasy spec on the world map ;-)
6 million people on an area that is a little more Maryland.
I think the biggest jokes in Denmark is mountain bikes (highest dirt hill is less than 400ft high) and survival knives (the most desolate place is less than 2 miles from any populated area).
There is no state land, everything is polulated or private farm land, so hunting if expensive and not wery good. Fox, roedeer and birds, that's it. Less than 1000 pcs of elk sized game in the whole country, and they kep it under fence!
So nowhere to shoot but the dedicated shooting ranges and then it is 300m~330yds at the most. So much for long range shooting.

We have @ 170000 people that has a hunting license and out of them less than 2-3000 reload. Because of all the has-mat fees we dont have American powders, Vihtavuori is the norm, not even German or French powders is imported because of that has-mat thing. I pay @ $60-65 for a pound of powder and primers is @ 6 cents a pop.
I have contacted a lot of organic farms and fruit plantasions im a vain hope to at least get some pest control shooting with my 17 Rem. Mainly starlings, magpies and crows. But time will show.
Biggest weapons related forum in Denmark has a little less than 4000 members and of them @ 3-400 is active, so we are a select few.

Gun related laws are retarded!
All guns in safes (i'm ok with that!), 10 max handguns and 25 guns max total unless you have a 1 ton safe or cast concrete vault (with direct alarm to the police). That includes antique guns.
No more than 2kg~5lbs of powder and 5000 primers at any given time.

I want a 17 HH rifle bad!
If i order a CZ 527 i have to wait 6-8 months and it will cost me $1400.
Then i thought of building one with a 22 Hornet donor rifle. A (German) barrel blank will set me back at least $500 and the action about the same.
I contacted a gunsmith an he said $500 min. just to thread the barrel and chamber it with a reamer i supplied, if he had to lift a finger then it would cost extra. No contuor turning, no crowning, no polishing and bluing and defenetly no bedding and inletting.

Sorry for the rambling and hijacking of your thread!
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Old 07-01-2014, 07:37 PM
Tilleyman Tilleyman is offline
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Sounds like only the really committed will put up with all that

But you do actually have it better than us in one area... only allowed up to 15 guns before a full 'back to base' alarm system is required, storage subject to random police inspections...

Anyway back on topic

Did John's article mention much about case forming for the 17 Hornet?
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  #9  
Old 07-01-2014, 09:14 PM
xring xring is offline
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Tilleyman , Barsness does mention Case Forming for the 17 Hornet . He calls it an involved Process . He says : " It would seem that simply trimming 22 Hornet Cases to the correct Length , then sizing them in a 17 Hornet Die would work , but Hornet Brass is thin , and the upper section of the 17 Hornets case body is larger in Diameter than the 22 Hornets . Consequently the Case Body is not supported by the 17 Hornet Sizing Dies , which usually results in collapsed Cases " . He then mentions one Solution is to remove the Stem from a Redding Seating Die which allows necking down the 22 Hornet Brass to about 19 Caliber . He then trims Cases by about 0.053 Inch and runs them thru the Full Length 17 Hornet Die . He mentions that this produces Cases ( for him ) with less than stellar Bullet alignment and Groups about twice as large as with 17 Hornady Brass . He says he decided to Fireform the Neck Sized Cases with Cream of Wheat until Factory Brass is widely available . Hope this makes sense as my one finger typing just gave up ..... . I think it would benefit the Newbies if the 17 hornet Shooters on this Board would give their experienced opinions on 17 Hornet Case Forming .
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  #10  
Old 07-01-2014, 11:19 PM
Jingle Jingle is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chickenthief View Post
Artillery is optimised for performance and shot count is in the low 100's before a barrel is gone. So big hot flame and loads of erosion in the barrel, thats why the evaporation/melting of the additive works. In many cases it is litterally just a sheet of tinfoil in the powder bag.

The Germans made a 800mm~32inch cannon during WWII. The shells were numbered and increased in size for every shot and by 58 shots it had to go back to Krupp for relining.
But then again it shot a 5 ton shell at 2700fps and used @ 1 ton of powder for every shot. Now thats heat and erosion if i ever saw it!
http://gizmodo.com/5821389/the-largest-gun-ever-built

Gun powder for small arms have all sorts of additives amongst other flame retardants to keep burning temp low and barrel erosion at a minimum. Low flame temp means that the proces becomes less effective.

Gun powder as we know it is 2-3 things:
Base = Nitrocellulose
doping = Nitroglycerine
Doping = Nitroguanidine

Then there is all the unknown additived to get optimum performance without all the misnomers.
Flame retardants
Coating to control burning speed
Lubricants
Antistatic retardants and the list goes on.

********************
Denmark is but a greasy spec on the world map ;-)
6 million people on an area that is a little more Maryland.
I think the biggest jokes in Denmark is mountain bikes (highest dirt hill is less than 400ft high) and survival knives (the most desolate place is less than 2 miles from any populated area).
There is no state land, everything is polulated or private farm land, so hunting if expensive and not wery good. Fox, roedeer and birds, that's it. Less than 1000 pcs of elk sized game in the whole country, and they kep it under fence!
So nowhere to shoot but the dedicated shooting ranges and then it is 300m~330yds at the most. So much for long range shooting.

We have @ 170000 people that has a hunting license and out of them less than 2-3000 reload. Because of all the has-mat fees we dont have American powders, Vihtavuori is the norm, not even German or French powders is imported because of that has-mat thing. I pay @ $60-65 for a pound of powder and primers is @ 6 cents a pop.
I have contacted a lot of organic farms and fruit plantasions im a vain hope to at least get some pest control shooting with my 17 Rem. Mainly starlings, magpies and crows. But time will show.
Biggest weapons related forum in Denmark has a little less than 4000 members and of them @ 3-400 is active, so we are a select few.

Gun related laws are retarded!
All guns in safes (i'm ok with that!), 10 max handguns and 25 guns max total unless you have a 1 ton safe or cast concrete vault (with direct alarm to the police). That includes antique guns.
No more than 2kg~5lbs of powder and 5000 primers at any given time.

I want a 17 HH rifle bad!
If i order a CZ 527 i have to wait 6-8 months and it will cost me $1400.
Then i thought of building one with a 22 Hornet donor rifle. A (German) barrel blank will set me back at least $500 and the action about the same.
I contacted a gunsmith an he said $500 min. just to thread the barrel and chamber it with a reamer i supplied, if he had to lift a finger then it would cost extra. No contuor turning, no crowning, no polishing and bluing and defenetly no bedding and inletting.

Sorry for the rambling and hijacking of your thread!

Yeah but after all, you have King Diamond , hehe

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Diamond
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