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  #11  
Old 08-28-2014, 07:04 PM
ramos ramos is offline
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Even if a guy could work with tin, the difference in density would create difficulties. Being roughly 35% less dense, in the core, would reduce the over-all weight by what? Maybe 25-30%? I don't know, just thinking out loud. I agree that lead will eventually suffer a Nation wide ban at some point. However, if there is an affordable alternative with the same properties as lead available at this time, I sure have not heard of it. I would not even bother hunting waterfowl any more if it was not to get my boys out there.
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  #12  
Old 08-28-2014, 07:32 PM
george ulrich george ulrich is offline
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The ban won't come as fast as you might think but the taxes on it will...
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  #13  
Old 08-28-2014, 07:41 PM
ramos ramos is offline
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Yeah, you're probably right George. My bullet supply (all factory made) will keep me in good shape for years to come. Just hope the Lead Police don't ever show up to conduct an audit.
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  #14  
Old 08-28-2014, 07:55 PM
TinMan TinMan is offline
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Both the technical economics and the political economics make it a very tough problem. The existence of bismuth and steel shot are good examples, which date back for more than 30 years. Shot is fairly simple to make. Precision shapes for non-lead rifle bullets make it a huge manufacturing issue also. Look at the cost of ammo for for long range tactical callibers like the Cheytac and the Barretts. Turned solid metal bullets alone are several bucks apiece.

Last edited by TinMan; 08-28-2014 at 07:57 PM. Reason: added
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  #15  
Old 08-29-2014, 05:30 AM
trotterlg trotterlg is offline
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With all the fast twist barrels out there now, I would love to see someone make up some long light weight bullets using dead soft aluminum cores. It is easily as soft as some lead, and you can buy bare aluminum wire that should make it very easy to try. Larry
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  #16  
Old 08-29-2014, 09:57 AM
george ulrich george ulrich is offline
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even zero hard alum would be harder than could be used, cores must be malleable to form and bond to jacket bismuth is going to be best alternative at this point...other than making a lighter bullet and the "core" not holding together on impact it is reasonably good maybe a small steel ball to create a secondary missle can be formed under the bismuth...just thinking out loud
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  #17  
Old 08-30-2014, 03:37 AM
hemiallen hemiallen is offline
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A little off topic..

But the new California anti-lead law is having pains. If my memory is correct the DFG decided to start the ban for shotguns, and in their papers mention that the ability to manufacture a suitable replacement has been manufactured for some time. The LAST change is at the end date ( 2019 I believe) is for big game hunting, and they state ~ " in light of the difficulty to find ANY ammunition, we are trying to figure out the impact of the ban, if there is no market available for hunters to meet the law", or something along those lines.

So even CA-DFG realizes the law may not be feasible, it would be an excellent blow to the DFG if the deer tag sales in 2019 were ZERO, hit them hard and maybe the A-holes who do nothing to manage our deer herd will feel a kick to their paycheck and get a real staff of game managers to fight for our deer.

Sorry, a little rant 4 weeks before I try and find 2 "willing" deer to put tags on.
And, BTW, I'll probably be shooting a 300 wby with Barnes lead free's ( in a zone with plenty of sage), or a 280 with Partitions or a 243 wssm with nosler silvertips.


Allen
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  #18  
Old 08-30-2014, 05:48 AM
trotterlg trotterlg is offline
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There are examples of aluminum cored bullets and aluminum tipped bullets all over the place. How hard can it be to drop a piece of dead soft aluminum wire in a die and see what comes out? A small diameter (as in Small cal) should not stress anything, copper jackets are formed all the time and it is much harder than soft aluminum. The aluminum core factory bullets and factory aluminum tipped bullets must be made in some machine some place. Larry
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  #19  
Old 08-30-2014, 09:00 AM
reed1911 reed1911 is offline
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Larry,

You are correct. The difference being that for the home shop it is not economical. Tin, alum, and other materials can absolutely be swaged into many many shapes, the difference is the amount of pressure and size of the machine. Short example is the mainly alum. alloy used for toothpaste tubes, it starts as a pretty small round solid cylinder, drops into the form, a ram drives onto it and the excess material flows backward along the ram, the front part swages into a little nipple that will later be threaded to make the place for the cap. Happens in about 1.5-1.7 seconds. Problem is the die is about the size large block motor and the pump is a little smaller than a standard transmission. It has to be in order to hit it with enough force to build up enough pressure and heat to make alum. flow, any slower and it would squish, then move, then fracture.

For all practical purpose, pure or close to pure lead is about all that can be swaged on a hand press. Moving up to a hydraulic press and we open up the window to a lot more, just depends on how much you want to spend.
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  #20  
Old 08-30-2014, 11:57 AM
george ulrich george ulrich is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trotterlg View Post
There are examples of aluminum cored bullets and aluminum tipped bullets all over the place. How hard can it be to drop a piece of dead soft aluminum wire in a die and see what comes out? A small diameter (as in Small cal) should not stress anything, copper jackets are formed all the time and it is much harder than soft aluminum. The aluminum core factory bullets and factory aluminum tipped bullets must be made in some machine some place. Larry
A thick jacket might be .028 thick a core lets say in 22 cal. is .190 its not so easy to upset I'm not saying you can't anything can be with enough force. Then you come into carbide dies that do not do well with internal force ie they will rupture. Then you come to specific gravity of alum compared to lead meaning you would be shooting lets say a 53 gr lead cored bullet with a .705 long jacket as compared to a 20 gr. alum cored bullet with a .705 jacket. Won't work you lost all b,c and kept sec. density. Theres a reason lead has been used for this long..
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