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  #11  
Old 10-10-2006, 04:25 AM
Rodgervich Rodgervich is offline
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Default Comparison pic

Here is my ratty RockChucker next to a Walnut Hill (RCE Co.) bullet swaging press. Note that the WH is on a 3/4" aluminum plate and makes it just a hair taller than if at the same bench height as the RC.
You can see it is a massive beast of machined steel bars next to the 'Chucker and yet it has only about 2/3 the stroke length. I assume the Corbin S press is similar in size and geometry (they are family you know ).
About the same handle length and diameter but the WH swings a full 180* for a full swage cycle. I would love to see what a professionally converted Rock Chucker looks like!
Yes that is the typical state of my reloading area.

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  #12  
Old 10-10-2006, 12:19 PM
ray hauver ray hauver is offline
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Paul why did you go RCE over Corbin??? Bench looks fine to me, I'd feel at home.
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  #13  
Old 10-10-2006, 02:08 PM
Bayou City Boy Bayou City Boy is offline
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Default Family Competition.....

Ahhhh.... brother Richard's (Corbin) idea of how to make a bullet swaging press.

I believe the WH is a little larger than the CSP-1 S-Press, but they are very similar in the overall design. With the WH, the top of the ram has the two guides that it moves in while the other brother's press (Dave) doesn't have this. The handle mechanism and the handle itself are very similar in design.

Does the WH have the adjustable stroke? I don't remember.

When I was shopping for swaging equipment, it was obvious they were actually in competition with each other, but yet is was amazing how much of Daves's tooling perfectly fit Richard's designs and vice versa.

The only reason I bought Dave's press over the WH was at the time I purchased my equipment, I could get 20 caliber dies a little quicker from Dave, so I just bought his press to go with his dies as I felt the two presses were very similar.

In comparing the size of the presses against Rock Chuckers, the WH definitely looks to be a little bit wider and taller overall. I have my swaging press mounted on the opposite end of the bench - maybe 3-4 feet apart from one of my Rock Chuckers - so it's a little harder to compare than in Paul's picture.

I have my RCBS press also mounted on a separate mounting plate that's the same thickness as the one the swaging press is mounted on, so they are both mounted at the same height off the bench.

-BCB
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  #14  
Old 10-10-2006, 02:49 PM
Rodgervich Rodgervich is offline
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Ray, the WH press is on "long term loan" in return for my services upon request by the lender. As a beggar I do not choose, only accept thankfully. The .20 cal die set (part of the loan deal) is from Corbin and I bought an adapter set from RCE. I also purchsed a .429" lead bullet swage die from RCE just to fool around with, makes good bullets.
My presses swap places on the aluminum plate, I don't have room for both on the bench at the same time. Two or three bolts and they trade places, less than 5 minutes.
No the WH does not have an adjustable stroke.
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  #15  
Old 10-10-2006, 05:22 PM
Gary in Illinois Gary in Illinois is offline
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Default Corbin vs. Corbin

Does anyone know if there are any significant differences in quality or usability between the presses and dies made by Dave and Richard? (I do understand that the dies do not interchange between the "S" and Walnut Hill presses - at least not without adapters.) One other thing I noticed is that Dave Corbin's site states that any dies smaller than .224 are custom items (at custom prices!) and are not normally carried in stock. BCB, I find it interesting that you found better availability of small dies from Dave while I found them in stock at Richards?? I guess timing is everything!

I just ordered a Walnut Hill press from Richard because the dies I wanted (.172 & .204) were in stock. The whole setup is supposed to ship this week. I would have preferred to wait a little longer before deciding but availability of the .172 & .204 dies made me move quicker than I anticipated.

In talking with both Dave and Richard I found that Dave projects more of a "take it or leave it" and "it will be ready when I get around to it" attitude than Richard. At least that was my perception. I hope I don't find that there is a reason that Richard has product in stock and that I would have had to wait for it for some unspecified period from Dave!! I guess time will tell...

I will probably have MANY questions when I get the press, dies, lead wire and jackets. Hope they all come together to make bullets that fit my barrels!

Thanks for all the information.

Gary
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  #16  
Old 10-10-2006, 07:08 PM
Bayou City Boy Bayou City Boy is offline
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Gary:

I purchased my press, etc., and dies 6 years ago before there was much of a demand for 20 caliber bullet making dies like there may be now with the 204 Ruger floating around.

I don't remember the exact time frames involved with both of the brothers - Richard specifically - but neither one had the dies on the shelf at the time and had to have them made. I recall that Dave gave me a 6-8 week time frame for the dies to be available, but I actually had everything in hand about 5 weeks later.

If I remember correctly, the price between the two brothers for the complete package I bought was just a few dollars - I don't remember who was cheaper at the time.

All things considered, I have been very happy with the product I bought. Originally I bought additional bullet jackets and lead wire from Dave when I needed to replenish, and got prompt service. But I now use other vendors for those things and have not bought anything from him for several years.

As for your question on quality, if Richard had been the one to be able to get the dies the quickest at the time, I would have likely bought from him, and I'm sure I would have been just as happy with the final product. They both turn out good quality products.

Good luck with your venture. You'll most likely either love making bullets or you will find it a real chore. I'm not overly fond of doing it, but I do like the bullets I am able to make.

I can make both HP style and lead tipped bullets with the dies I bought. I've bought a few of the newer factory bullets to play with in the past couple of years, but I find myself always going back and making my own bullets because no one makes a 38 grain HP or a 41 grain lead tipped bullet. And it's kinda' fun to shoot targets or live animals with a bullet you've made yourself.

-BCB
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I miss mean Tweets, competence, and $1.79 per gallon gasoline.

Yo no creo en santos que orinan.

Women and cats will do as they please. Men and dogs should relax and just get used to the idea.

Going keyboard postal over something that you read on the internet is like seeing a pile of dog crap on the sidewalk and choosing to step in it rather than stepping around it.

If You're Afraid To Offend, You Can't Be Honest - Thomas Paine
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  #17  
Old 10-12-2006, 03:19 PM
jim saubier jim saubier is offline
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Default clarification

I look forward to discussions like these, we've only been making bullets for a few years and do not claim to be experts in this field. I am interested in hearing more about the equipment that others use, and the options that we as bullet makers have. If indeed there is a better press for the job, I'd sure like to understand what makes it better, how it may differ from what we use, and if it is a good option for us. Could you take some pics of the dies in the press, show some close-ups of the ram, the punches, and the tooling in process, loading the seated cores, stuff like that so that we can get a better understanding of the process. My father is working on putting togethor some pics of our equipment, our process, and the things that we do to make our bullets.
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  #18  
Old 10-12-2006, 08:26 PM
Bayou City Boy Bayou City Boy is offline
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Default I'll give it a try.......

The first photo is a picture of my "inside” small caliber reloading and bullet swaging set-up. The Corbin CSP-1 S-Press is mounted on the right side of the bench and the RCBS Rock Chucker that I use for reloading is mounted on the left next to an RCBS powder measure. I use this arrangement for reloading all my small caliber (17, 20, and 22) cartridges as well as bullet swaging. The portable spool arrangement behind the RCBS press I made so that I could easily spool out lead wire for cutting into lengths using the lead wire cutting tool to turn into lead cores.

The oak table that I use is steel reinforced underneath on all four legs and it also has a 1/4" thick piece of steel plate attached to the entire underside of the table for reinforcement. The swaging press is actually mounted on a piece of very dense Mylar and it is bolted to the table top though the Mylar and through the underside piece of steel plate. The cabinet top is attached with L-brackets and is secure to the table top. The storage underneath is where I keep all my small bore cartridges in those little MTM boxes, as well as in several places you can see on the top cabinet

"Looking nice" was one of the trade-offs with my wife for having this arrangement in the house. As the kids grew up and left the nest, I acquired one of my two son's upstairs bedrooms for this purpose. If you look to the far left you can see my computer screen and key board for looking in on Saubier.com, etc.

I also have an RCBS press mounted on my work bench in the garage and that's where I do my smaller volume larger caliber hunting rifle loading. The garage is not air conditioned, so it gets a little hot in there in the summer, so this indoor arrangement works great for all year around.



Then next photo is a close up of the lead wire cutter. The adjustment knob on the right side is used to adjust the length of wire cut each time. You cut the wire to a length that corresponds to the weight of the core plus about two extra grains of weight. This is done to insure that you cam make a solid lead core of the proper weight when actually swaging the lead wire into a bullet core. I’ll talk about this a little bit more later on when I show the core swaging die.

Notice the counter on the right underneath the wire cutting handle. I went to Academy Sports and bought a couple of cheapy hand counters and attached one to the cutter and one to the swaging press itself so that I can easily keep track of how many wires I cut and how many cores I make, etc. – essentially how many times I pull the handle and produce something. The first few times I made bullets, it seems like I spent more time counting parts than making bullets as my mind has a tendency to wander while I’m doing something, and mental counting was hard. This simplified the counting process.



The third photo is a picture of the dies I use for the various stages of bullet making. Each die body has an external punch that is seen in the top compartments which actually fits snugly down inside the top of the die itself and does the actual work. Inside of each die is an internal punch which serves to push the finished product out the top of the die body when the press handle is returned to the upright position. On the Corbin press there is an internal set pin which holds the internal punch in place when the ram is raised and forces it up through the die body as the ram is lowered.

The die and punch on the far left are used for taking .224” bullet jackets down to @ .198”. This is a procedure which is done in reverse of all other bullet swaging operations on the press in that the punch sets on top of the ran and the die is mounted on the top of the press. You place a jacket on the punch, pull the handle to raise the ram, and the jacket is forced through and out the top of the die.

All of the other stage dies attach to the ram and the external punch is attached to a punch holder and is mounted on the top of the press facing down.

The second set of die/punches is the jacket cutter. You place an uncut jacket into the die body and raise the ram against the v-shaped cutter which goes inside the jacket and pinches it off at the top of the die. The length of the cut jacket can be adjusted to any length you want by the set nut on the internal punch. The little tool next to the v-cutter is used to measure jacket length in the die body when you adjust it.

The next die is the core making die and punch combination, followed on the right by the core seating die and punch, and then moving to the right is the point forming die and external punch. These dies are all used in stages to make a HP bullet of any weight length you choose.

The last die and punch on the right is used to make a lead tipped bullet. When making a lead tipped bullet, you swage the bullet tip and leave it open. Extra lead is extruded through the opening and looks kinda’ like a bubble of lead on top of the bullet. You run it through the tip former and the bubble comes out formed into a very nice pointed lead tip.



Next is a photo of the core making die and external punch and the internal punch pulled down out of the die body. The external punch goes into the top of the die as the ram is raised and the internal punch is down below the swaging operation and against a set pin on the press as the ram is raised. As the ram and the die body is lowered in the press after swaging, the set pin forces the internal punch up through the bottom of the die and pushes the product out the top of the die body, whether it’s a lead core, a jacket with a core seated in it, or whether it’s a final formed bullet.

Each matched external punch and each internal punch fits the hole in the swaging die body very closely so that they move inside the hole freely with the press, yet keep the lead core or the bullet jacket formed correctly.



The forum just told me I had exceeded the limit on photos for one posting when I tried to preview the next part, so I will continue below with another post.

-BCB
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I miss mean Tweets, competence, and $1.79 per gallon gasoline.

Yo no creo en santos que orinan.

Women and cats will do as they please. Men and dogs should relax and just get used to the idea.

Going keyboard postal over something that you read on the internet is like seeing a pile of dog crap on the sidewalk and choosing to step in it rather than stepping around it.

If You're Afraid To Offend, You Can't Be Honest - Thomas Paine

Last edited by Bayou City Boy; 10-12-2006 at 10:48 PM.
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  #19  
Old 10-12-2006, 08:57 PM
Bayou City Boy Bayou City Boy is offline
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Default I'll try....part two...

Next is a picture of the core swaging die mounted on the press ram and the external punch mounted on the punch holder and pointing down toward the die body. As the ram is raised the external punch enters the top of the die where you have placed the cut lead wire and forces it into the die body to shape it.



The picture following it is a close up of the core making die in the press after swaging by the external punch. Notice the strings of lead coming out the sides…those are the extra two grains of lead wire not needed for the core weight you want. Having the lead strings coming out of the bleeder holes in the core making die insures you that the core is compacted fully with no voids, etc. The die actually has three bleeder holes, but the third one is on the back side of the die where it's not seen in the photo. When the internal punch pushes the core out the top of the die, the strings are sheared off and you can’t even see where they were on the finished lead core.

Notice the counter mounted on the right to keep track of ram stokes and to count parts made in each stage of the process. Each time the press handle is returned to its full up position with the ram down completely, the handle trips the counter and adds another number to the number count of cores made, cores seated in jackets, or bullets formed.



Following is just a picture of some cut lead wire and some finished and washed cores to be seated into jackets and turned into 38 grain HP bullets.



And last, but not least, is the most important piece of the whole process. Without bullet lube used in every stage of the process, you’ll find that you will have a bullet in some stage of completion stuck inside an expensive swaging die. It hasn’t happened to me yet, but, “knock on wood”.

I understand if it’s done at the “right moment” in the process that you can have a press, external punch, and die which are all firmly locked together as one unit. Not where you want to get.


So….. I hope this helps explain a little bit more about bullet swaging. I just covered one part; core making, but the process is similar for each step in making a complete bullet.

-BCB

EDIT: Just one last point I meant to include. If you noticed when I began describing the dies used, I mentioned that I took a .224" jacket down to an external measurement of @.198". When you swage bullets, you start with a bullet jacket which is actually smaller in diameter than the finished product, and the swaging process increases it's diameter/size through pressure applied on the inside of the bullet jacket until you have a finished bullet measuring .204". Most of the internal pressure is appied in the core seating operation. It's kinda' just the opposite of re-sizing brass where you reduce the brass in size externally. When swaging bullets, you increase the external diameter.

Also, the external punch holder, by design, is adjustable much like a sizing die to change/adjust the amount that the external punch goes down into the die body when the ram is fully raised..
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I miss mean Tweets, competence, and $1.79 per gallon gasoline.

Yo no creo en santos que orinan.

Women and cats will do as they please. Men and dogs should relax and just get used to the idea.

Going keyboard postal over something that you read on the internet is like seeing a pile of dog crap on the sidewalk and choosing to step in it rather than stepping around it.

If You're Afraid To Offend, You Can't Be Honest - Thomas Paine

Last edited by Bayou City Boy; 10-13-2006 at 05:22 PM.
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  #20  
Old 10-13-2006, 05:14 AM
DittoHead DittoHead is offline
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Thanks for the demonstration, Bayou City Boy. How do you remove the swaging lube from the cores? Tumbling? Chemically? I’m assuming that’s what you mean by “washed cores.”
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