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  #51  
Old 12-18-2013, 08:41 PM
20 EXTREME 20 EXTREME is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeremy(WI) View Post
I looked and my lot #3120?? is some of that from before the crimping started and I decapped a round I shot on the weekend and the primer pocket is really clean. I ordered the ammo through Ables and they had to have just received it as they were out just a day or so earlier. It may have been some that was returned to hornady and they decided the brass was ok? I don't know but I will keep an eye on the primers
All of the brass and factory rounds were from the very first lots as I bought them about 1 year ago. My testing in cooler temperatures last winter and early last spring showed no sign of overpressure although the factory rounds and the new brass I loaded with 12.0 grains of AA 1680 were near max. I FL sized, cleaned the primer pockets with my Sinclair uniformer and re-loaded them with AA 2200 and had no problems. In fact I questioned those that reported shallow primer pockets.

It came as quite a shock that the factory ammo stretched primer pockets to the point of blowing primers as I reported. This in spite of reports of others having problems. However a subsequent report by another person showed that AA 1680 at 11.4 grains stretched the web by 0.0005" and LiL-Gun, at Hodgdons recomended max of 10.0 grains stretched the web by 0.0015" at high temperatures. If you go to page 394 of the Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading, Third Edition, you will find information on determining Maximum Pressure When A Pressure Gun Is Not Available. It states much the same as what I postes in a thread that I started,
Estimating pressure by case head expansion

When working up loads, especially in my wildcat cartridges, I use a Micrometer with 0.0001" resolution to check for case head expansion. I measure a number of cases and keep a new round from the batch of brass that I use for comparison.

There is a good write-up regarding this on page 55 of the Speer #12 Reloading Manual. They look for an average expansion of 0.0003 with no individual reading over 0.0005". They state that this is generally accepted as representing pressures in the 50,000 CUP range with typical cases. Cases used more than 3 times become work hardened which result in false readings.

Hornady comment on this on page 72 of their Hornady Handbook of Cartridge handloading, 8th Edition. " An accurate blade micrometer can be a useful instrument for detecting excessive pressures. By measuring new case dimensions before and after firing, you will be able to note signs of excess pressure. On belted magnum cases you should measure the belt. Careful measurement of this dimension of new cases before and after firing reflects chamber pressure. Measure rimless cases just in front of the extractor groove or rimmed cases immediatly in front of the rim will reveal symptoms of excessive pressure in these cartridges. When these results are compared to similar measurements on factory rounds, a reloader can approximate a safe upper pressure limit."


Using this method and the pressure tested loads from the Hodgdon Online Manual I determined safe loads in the 17 Hornet and posted this information on another thread. You will note that there was no expansion of the case head in any of these rounds as the pressures are well under 50,000 CUP. Instead I measured case expansion at the 0.200" datum and made the comparisons there. While some of the handloads stretched the brass slightly more than the factory rounds they are still safe in my rifle. The last comparison with the 20 V-Max and 1680 actually showed less pressure than the factory rounds but the velocity was about 30 fps slower. However the velocity differences were somewhat skewd due to the higher ES of the factory rounds.

Originally Posted by 20 EXTREME


What this shows is that most of the early 17 HH ammo and brass was just fine and was not damaged when shot in cooler temperatures. So I recommend that you fire all such brass during cool tempertures. Check the web for expansion and the primer pockets for proper depth, discard the ones that are bad, Size and reload the ones that are not. Just use the Western Powders manual, preferably AA 2200, and you will be OK. I would stay away from LiL Gun and H 110 as safe loads with these powders put you under 80% load density. Hodgdon have had warnings against that with H 110 but appear to be ignoring previous warnings to that effect.

Ignore these warnings and load overpressure loads that you deem "Safe in my Rifle" without measuring web expansion and you will likely be sorry one day.
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  #52  
Old 12-18-2013, 09:49 PM
Bayou City Boy Bayou City Boy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeremy(WI) View Post
I looked and my lot #3120?? is some of that from before the crimping started and I decapped a round I shot on the weekend and the primer pocket is really clean. I ordered the ammo through Ables and they had to have just received it as they were out just a day or so earlier. It may have been some that was returned to hornady and they decided the brass was ok? I don't know but I will keep an eye on the primers
It may be old ammo that has sat in the distribution chain someplace for some period of time. I doubt any vendor buys directly from a manufacturer. The middle man has to get his cut, too, and some of them play availability games to get the best price possible from the vendors.

From your description is sounds like it might be older ammo/brass especially when you note the brass primers. Also - The 3120xxx numbers in the lot # are obviously early production. Again Supposedly crimped silver primers began May 10th with lot #3131320.

20 Extreme - for what its worth I've found your posts to be very informative and helpful based on your experience with the factory 17 HH ammunition. Hopefully Hornady will get all of this resolved fairly quickly with new brass in the New Year..????

-BCB
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  #53  
Old 12-19-2013, 03:15 AM
tuck2 tuck2 is offline
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Default New CZ Varmint 17 Hornet For Me

The CZ Varmint 17 Hornet I ordered is to be delivered to the sporting goods store Dec 19 ,13 . Last Dec 2012 I purchased five boxes of 17 H ammo, a 4-16 X AO scope , military sling ,and sling swivels. Since then I have gotten RCBS full size die set with a neck size die, a shell holder, Leupold scope rings, Nosler 20 Gr bullets ,and a box of 17 H brass. I have various small primers but still need so 1680 powder. I m getting the 17 Hornet rifle for prairie dog shooting but this winter plan on getting rid of some of the black tail jack rabbits on my land. == I enjoyed reading all your posts about the 17 Hornet. My order for more ammo and brass has ben back ordered since last March.

Last edited by tuck2; 12-19-2013 at 03:18 AM.
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  #54  
Old 12-20-2013, 01:46 PM
6mmdasher 6mmdasher is offline
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Default Ammo Issue

I contacted Hornady on the issue of sub-par 17 Hornet ammo and this was their response


I have a case of 17 Hornets Lot # 3120663 I just purchased a new CZ 525 17 hornet but have been hearing this Ammo has been loaded to hot and blowing primers. I plan to reloading this Lot. Should I have any concerns shooting the factory loaded ammo or reloading this Lot of Brass.





No sir, you can shoot it without reservation. Early on we did have some issues with that issue but it was related to sub minimum specifications in the guns not the ammunition.



Thank You,
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  #55  
Old 12-20-2013, 03:50 PM
20 EXTREME 20 EXTREME is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 6mmdasher View Post
I contacted Hornady on the issue of sub-par 17 Hornet ammo and this was their response


I have a case of 17 Hornets Lot # 3120663 I just purchased a new CZ 525 17 hornet but have been hearing this Ammo has been loaded to hot and blowing primers. I plan to reloading this Lot. Should I have any concerns shooting the factory loaded ammo or reloading this Lot of Brass.





No sir, you can shoot it without reservation. Early on we did have some issues with that issue but it was related to sub minimum specifications in the guns not the ammunition.



Thank You,

I contacted Savage regarding this strange turn of events and will report on their reply.



I purchased a Savage Lightweight Varminter in 17 HH about a year ago. I began testing the rifle last winter when the temperatures were at -5 TO +5 degrees Celsius. Hornady factory ammunition and their new brass loaded to 12.0 grains of AA 1680 with Hornady V-Max bullets which is within Hornadys published max of 12.4 grains of this powder. The handloads were virtualy identical to the Factory rounds and the pressures, whild appearing near max, were not stretching the web measured to 0.0001"

That all changed when the temperature rose to 30 Celsius when the pressure rose to the point of stretching the primer pockets by up to 0.008" where the primer blew violently enough to blow the extractor off of the bolt and spray the shooter in the face with hot gases. Others on Saubier.com began reporting the same thing hapening with their Savage 25's and similar instances causing bolt face erosion on their CZ 527's.

At first Hornady blamed the situation on tapered primer pockets and claimed to have solved the problem by "staking the primers. Today I learned that a Saubier member contacted Hornady and this was their response(cut and pasted).
" Ammo Issue

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I contacted Hornady on the issue of sub-par 17 Hornet ammo and this was their response


I have a case of 17 Hornets Lot # 3120663 I just purchased a new CZ 525 17 hornet but have been hearing this Ammo has been loaded to hot and blowing primers. I plan to reloading this Lot. Should I have any concerns shooting the factory loaded ammo or reloading this Lot of Brass.





No sir, you can shoot it without reservation. Early on we did have some issues with that issue but it was related to sub minimum specifications in the guns not the ammunition.



Thank You, "





This has me very concerned as I sold the rifle and ammunition to another person. I don't believe that there was a problem with the Savage 25, as Hornady are suggesting. There is much evidence that I could pass on to you, via email or even supply damaged brass, to show that Hornady's Ammo and Ammo handloaded as per their published data is unsafe. For example Hornady show the 20 V-max loaded to a maximum of 12.4 grains of AA 1680 while Western Powders list a maximum of 11.2 grains of AA 1680 delivering Max Saami pressures with that bullet.

However if there is any truth to their claims that the rifles are built to sub minimum specs I would like to know if there has been a recall of the rifles.

Look forward to your response,

Laverne Lundgard
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  #56  
Old 12-20-2013, 04:16 PM
lanenebraska lanenebraska is offline
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FWIW

I have trued up the primer pockets of the first gen HH brass-with the gold primers, and tested with up to 10grains of LilGun, behind 20g Vmax, and Rem 7.5 primers, without having any blown primers. I did get some bulged cases.

I have also trued up the primer pockets with the Staked-Silver primer HH brass (not much needed if at all for most of them) These have a considerbly smaller AND more uniform flash holes. I also took these up to 10grains of LilGun. With no blown primers and less case bulge-read: normal and reloadable

For both types of brass, the primers looked normal, not backing out.

And as I said before, I gave up on Lilgun (and 1680) altogether and use AA2230 (Cause I have LOTS of it, and can't find 2200) with 25grain Nagle bullets. Just shy of 3200fps with 13.2grains of AA2230, and great accuracy from my CZ527 Varmint.
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  #57  
Old 12-20-2013, 04:59 PM
20 EXTREME 20 EXTREME is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lanenebraska View Post
FWIW

I have trued up the primer pockets of the first gen HH brass-with the gold primers, and tested with up to 10grains of LilGun, behind 20g Vmax, and Rem 7.5 primers, without having any blown primers. I did get some bulged cases.

I have also trued up the primer pockets with the Staked-Silver primer HH brass (not much needed if at all for most of them) These have a considerbly smaller AND more uniform flash holes. I also took these up to 10grains of LilGun. With no blown primers and less case bulge-read: normal and reloadable

For both types of brass, the primers looked normal, not backing out.

And as I said before, I gave up on Lilgun (and 1680) altogether and use AA2230 (Cause I have LOTS of it, and can't find 2200) with 25grain Nagle bullets. Just shy of 3200fps with 13.2grains of AA2230, and great accuracy from my CZ527 Varmint.

For those who cannot find AA2230 remember that Ramshot X-Terminator is the same powder.

Looking back over my notes from last spring show that I had determined that a FL sized HH case held 13.4 grains under a 25 V-Max seated 1.72" OAL or 0.070" off the lands. I was a little optomistic in my estimated velocity as I had 13.0 grains at 3300 fps.

The 25 grain bullets at just shy of 3200 fps should be a very safe load as AA 2200 pushes them safely to just over 3200 fps. At any rate this makes an awesome round out of the 17 HH. Should be good on coyotes to near 300 yards and hell on gophers.
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  #58  
Old 12-20-2013, 06:13 PM
Daryl Daryl is offline
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I always thought the web of the case was where the normal expansion of a case is, when it expands to the chamber's size. The base expansion is in between the rim and the web, ie: or at the extractor groove, or just in front of the groove where normally there is no expansion.

Interestingly enough, I've been using LG in my .17AH for many years now, with completely perfect results, in accuracy & lack of fouling and wonderful ballistics. No - it does not fill the case to the bottom of the neck, but still works perfectly in my rifle and the original CZ barrel as well. I've been using LG in both Hornet and Ack. Hornet for about 8 year now so a few more won't hurt.

I do believe some folks run into trouble because they do not work up loads - merely pick a load someone mentioned and "try it" - as loading 11gr. of LG in a .17HH. That would be like filling a .300 WTBY with 4198 and expecting good results.

My current AH (greater case capacity than the HH) with Pac-Nor 9" twist bl. maxes out at 10.2gr. LG in WW brass with 25gr. Vmaxs and 25gr. HP's and 10.4 with 20gr. bullets- both in WW brass. RP brass allows another 1/10gr. easily, but I only do that with 25's, not 20's. I use the same loads for fire forming as in formed brass with perfect results - 0 losses and am still using ALL of my original Hornet brass with the exception of the hardened necks that split. Those split necks were after 18 or 19 firings without annealing (RP) and with brand new WW after sizing, FF and loading 3 times some split - so needed to anneal them as well. Interesting that the RP brass went 14 firings as .22 Hornets (with what some have called excessive loads), then another 3 to 4 including Fire Forming before splitting, but the WW brass let go in some necks after only 4 shots including Fire Forming.

Barrels are DIFFERENT - sometimes radically so. My late buddy Brad's AH maxed out at 10.8gr. LG, while my re-chambered GM barrel maxed out at 10.6gr.LG- both with 20gr. Vmax's. My current barrels will not go any where near those loads. Even 1/10gr. makes a difference in these small cases.

The interesting thing about the Hornet in .22 or AH - due to it's shape and thinness of brass - you do NOT get away with using excessive loads.

If over loaded, Hornet cases will certainly not last for 18 firings and still be going strong with no end in sight. Surely I'll eventually lose them all to split necks - I hate annealing and only do it when they start splitting. As long as LG keeps working for me and it is still available, I'll continue to use it.

Those 'other' powders are not available here - thus I am VERY happy LG is available and locally. It is only $32.00 per pound and at 10.2 or 10.3gr. per .17 Ackley Hornet load, or 14.0gr. in .22 Hornet RP brass (13.0gr. in WW brass), I'll continue to use it.
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Last edited by Daryl; 12-20-2013 at 06:16 PM.
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  #59  
Old 12-20-2013, 08:53 PM
Jeremy(WI) Jeremy(WI) is offline
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I would like to see AA2200 at the target shop, went today and they had a bunch of 1# varget, H335, and AA1680 which I don't need so I got out of there with the least damage to my wallet ever
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  #60  
Old 12-20-2013, 10:42 PM
montdoug montdoug is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lanenebraska View Post
FWIW

I have trued up the primer pockets of the first gen HH brass-with the gold primers, and tested with up to 10grains of LilGun, behind 20g Vmax, and Rem 7.5 primers, without having any blown primers. I did get some bulged cases.

I have also trued up the primer pockets with the Staked-Silver primer HH brass (not much needed if at all for most of them) These have a considerbly smaller AND more uniform flash holes. I also took these up to 10grains of LilGun. With no blown primers and less case bulge-read: normal and reloadable

For both types of brass, the primers looked normal, not backing out.

And as I said before, I gave up on Lilgun (and 1680) altogether and use AA2230 (Cause I have LOTS of it, and can't find 2200) with 25grain Nagle bullets. Just shy of 3200fps with 13.2grains of AA2230, and great accuracy from my CZ527 Varmint.
Lane, I've been planning to do exactly what you mention here in uniforming the primer pockets. I would seem to me that if this issue with some brass having a tapered primer pocket is the problem, uniforming the primer pockets should true it up as you say and cure it.
As to a hot loading problem that would have to be a lot to lot issue as the stuff I bought in early May of 2012 is chrono'ing almost exactly 3,600FPS (lower than projected velocity) and showing zero pressure signs and that was in the middle to latter part of June and it was a real warm summer this year.
Sure curious doings. When I see primers backing out of cases I think "headspace problem".
Whatever it is, I wish it weren't clouding up the release of what I see as one of the neatest factory standardized rounds in many many years. Of course I said the same thing about the .17 Fireball too and look how well it did .
Oh well, as Jim Barker said once, they are better off as wildcats anyway. Or something to that effect !

Jeremy, I think you might have found the one silver lining to the ammo and component shortage. Look at all the money we're saving .
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