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  #11  
Old 09-07-2007, 03:10 AM
DCH DCH is offline
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As far as I know J4's are the best price if you buy enough at one time

Drew
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  #12  
Old 09-07-2007, 09:47 AM
Foxhunter223 Foxhunter223 is offline
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ray h
I really appreciate you contact info for Mr Larry Blackmon. It is even more interesting that he makes reamers as well. Thanks again.

iiranger
I was not being derogatory to Mr Corbin and if I came across that way I do appologise. This forum, all the information and data that can be gleaned from it is priceless and I appreciate it immensely as people give freely of there time and knowledge. I did say that we had been told that, we did not make that assumption ourselves, however we should have investigated that information more closely. We do have available to us many thousands of empty .22 Rimfire cases from our local range. Maybe we should look at it more closely.

Jim
Yes it is accuracy we are after for our bench rest projectiles. What we were trying to procure as an addition to the BR projectiles was a more cost effective alternative to J4's for varmint use. But you are right they are the best.

DCH,
The trouble for us is when we buy in bulk we get hit with extra taxes our end so it is a catch 22. Buy small pay more per jacket, buy bulk get hit with tax.

But guys I really do appreciate all your comments and suggestions and will discuss all you have said this weekend with my shooting mate.

Pete
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  #13  
Old 09-07-2007, 11:34 AM
ray h ray h is offline
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Pete, the reamers he makes are for his bullet making dies. He told me he had a hard time getting reamers ground exactly to his specs so decided to make them.
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  #14  
Old 09-08-2007, 03:17 AM
Bayou City Boy Bayou City Boy is offline
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My experience with the J-4 and Sierra jackets has all been with the 0.224" jackets that I have drawn down to 20 caliber.

Overall, the Sierras have been more consistent in length after drawing down, which translates into more uniform jacket weights when the jackets are trimmed to final length.

In addition, in all five of my 20 caliber rifles, I have gotten better accuracy with bullets swaged from Sierra jackets than from J-4 jackets. In terms of accuracy and consistent weight of trimmed cases, the Corbin jackets have been very good also. They just happen to be a little pricier, so I don't use them as much.

JME - BCB
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  #15  
Old 09-08-2007, 09:57 PM
iiranger iiranger is offline
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Formerly there was a web site [bulletsmiths.com] that is now not going... I think they referred to a source for jackets in Australia, one Mr. Malcom Bone... He had a web site that was not complete... did have a page on living on fruit mainly, "fruitopians"... No idea if you can find him. I figured that shipping to USA would kill me and did not persue it. luck
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  #16  
Old 09-09-2007, 07:45 AM
Foxhunter223 Foxhunter223 is offline
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iiranger
I know the chap your talking about and yes we did try some of his jackets, but alas they would not fit into our dies so we had to return them. Which was a bit of a bummer because it would have been great to be able to source jackets here in Australia.

I have been talking to my mate today and we have just about decided that we will just use J4's for all projectiles and hang the expense.

Thank you and others who have written posts trying to help us. I am very greatfull for all the information that has been offered.

Pete
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  #17  
Old 09-11-2007, 04:25 AM
georgeld georgeld is offline
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Pete:
I'd bet those dies and punch's that wear out soon are not properly tempered hard enough, and/or not made of the correct steel.

I've found: Drill rod, baked on a cookie sheet in the oven @ 450 degree's for an hour and a 1/2. Then dumped directly into a bucket of cold water are so hard I can't touch them with a file. The hotter the temp, and colder the water the harder the results. BUT: too much hardness WILL make them brittle. So don't get too carried away and end up breaking them off.

I've made hundreds of punchs, tools, and chisels out of oil field sucker rod and heating with a torch to cherry red then and letting them cool to a red/pink color then quenching. It's a trick, and takes quite a bit of practice to get it right. Too red and it's brittle and edge's will break off. Too yellow and it's soft enough they'll dull. IF you don't get the color all the way thru, or don't quench it completely thru, you'll end up with a hard surface and soft center which is properly call: case hardened. I also temper the heads of the chisels I make so they don't bell over. but, two things here, they must be pale yellow, or else they'll chip. I've had a inch long sliver buried into my brisket once and that was plenty painful. Hard heads will also dent the face of your hammer too. (besides get you into trouble with the wife)

But, this baking in the oven at a controlled temp is new to me and seems to be a much more controlable process. Instructions I got with drill rod was 400 degree's for one hour. Too my notions, that wasn't quite as hard as I like. After that I went a bit more temp and half hour longer. This works swell, maybe even better than a torch with sucker rod too. I tried that awhile back and couldn't touch it with a new file. I've also tried to knock the edge's down turning the bit in a lathe and a new file. I've got a file with several groove's cut down each face to show how hard proper tempering can be. Anything that will cut groove's in the face of a file is dam hard.

IF you get sucker rod from a scrap dealer. It will already be hard and you can't turn it in a lathe, nor mill it either, grinding is the only way to shape any steel that's hard. To soften these steels (anneal) bake them at the same time and temps, and then just let them cool at room temperature. They'll be soft enough to machine when cooled this way. Once all the machining is finished and they are polished, that's the time to temper them. When cooled down after that, just do a final high polish and you'll have it made. When hot steel is dumped into cool/cold water it'll usually turn a dark bronze color at 45-500 degree's. I haven't confirmed this, but, feel that will protect from rusting somewhat. IF it's dumped into oil, any kind of oil, used engine oil even. Watch the smoke and do it outside. But, it'll turn things into a dark blue/black color permanently. But, like gun barrel blue, it will rub off eventually. This will protect from rusting fairly well if you don't get carried away with things.

Steels and annealing work close to opposite of brass. I've had a real hard time getting that thru my hard head. But, it works well too.

Hope this info helps understand things a little bit. This is very brief info about a very technical subject. Metalurgy is a deep thing to get into and takes many yrs to learn very much of it.

The real trick to dies, bore's and tooling that rubs against each other is getting a very high polish on all contact surfaces. 1200, or 2000 grit paper is not out of reason if your goal is a high polish.

Wish you well,
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Last edited by georgeld; 09-11-2007 at 04:39 AM. Reason: typo's
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  #18  
Old 09-11-2007, 09:47 AM
Foxhunter223 Foxhunter223 is offline
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George,
With what you have said has brought back many deep and fond memories that I have not thought about in many years. My grandfather was a Blacksmith by trade and when I was very young used to work with him often at his forge and anvil. I remember him showing me heat treating and tempering steel and what you say is correct about tempering metal. When he wanted to soften steel he would heat it to the correct temperature, remove it from the forge and bury it in a pile of sand he kept just for that reason. In that sand it would cool slowly over several days.

Oil field's are in pretty short supply around here George so I have no idea what oil field sucker rod is ? That one you will have to explain to me ! In fact I think the nearest oil field is a couple thousand kilometres away

George many thanks for the lesson in metal hardening.
Pete
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  #19  
Old 02-21-2008, 04:57 AM
georgeld georgeld is offline
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Pete:
I must apoligize for not getting back to this thread in a timely manner. Been posting on the small cal side too much for my own good.

Sucker rod: Most any kind of well, water or oil especially the deeper ones beyond suction pumping depth. There's a cup of some kind at the bottom of the well fastened to a sectioned rod of various dia. Lenghts run about 25ft. male fitting on one end, female on the other. Fittings are several times larger than the shaft of the rod itself and they're only about 6-8" long on 5/8" rod I have used. They are just screwed together til the bucket end is to the proper depth. How all they work I don't have a clue.
But, up top there's a "pump jack". Long arm a cable runs over that bobs up and down by motor turning a crankshaft and counter balance set up. All a sucker rod is, or does is connect the pump jack to the bucket. Much like if you'd dip a bucket of water out of your well the rope attaching the bucket would serve the same purpose. OF course with as much weight and many yrs of steady use and suspension it's got to be made of good quality steel. Why they don't just use cable is something I've never thought of, nor have a clue why.
Hope this explains it well enough you can understand it all.

As a teen, I ran a hand cranked blower for a forge for many hours and days for another guy that did the blacksmithing. I learned a lot from him. Doing enough of it got my hands fairly well immune to burns from anything without color in it. In high school right after that I'd handle steel that was hot enough to really burn others and not be aware of it. I'd handle something and hand it to them and they'd be burned quite badly, yet it never even felt hot to me.

Mostly on the ranch where I did so much of it. We made rock drills for dynamite holes of various lengths. The cutting edges usually had a 1/3, or 1/4 round shape, sharpened on both sides. He used 'steels', as miners called drills from air powered water cooled rock drill bits that had been worn out from use and scrapped. Those are hard to find here, where sucker rod is plentiful in some place's. When I was hauling oil field pipe, we saw lots of sucker rod around and when time came to build a fence around my yard I just bought a load of pipe and sucker rod was used for a top rail. Over the years I've replaced much of the fence and saved the rod and pipe because it's top quality steel for tools even though much of it is deeply etched from rust it's still great for tools like drills, chisles and center punch's.

Stay safe and healthy,
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  #20  
Old 02-21-2008, 05:12 PM
george ulrich george ulrich is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxhunter223 View Post
iiranger
I know the chap your talking about and yes we did try some of his jackets, but alas they would not fit into our dies so we had to return them. Which was a bit of a bummer because it would have been great to be able to source jackets here in Australia.

I have been talking to my mate today and we have just about decided that we will just use J4's for all projectiles and hang the expense.

Thank you and others who have written posts trying to help us. I am very greatfull for all the information that has been offered.

Pete
pete, have you thought about a draw die to be able to use the jackets that are available in australia?you can draw them to whatever size you need to fit your dies. george
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