Saubier.com  



Go Back   Saubier.com > Saubier.com Forums > Small Caliber Discussion Board

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old 10-19-2020, 04:00 AM
Bayou City Boy Bayou City Boy is offline
Supporting Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Tomball/Klein, Texas
Posts: 3,989
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 218bee View Post
Hey JohnHenry,

I have heard this mentioned many times on this website. When I bought my Model 38 in 20 VT I called Cooper to inquire about it. I was talking with one of their gunsmiths and asked him if they stopped producing it in the Fireball cartridges because the action could not handle it. He said, "No" it had to do with the fact that they did not sell many of them and those cartridges could easily be chambered in the Model 21. According to him it did not make sense to carry an extra action for it. He said there were about 30 rifles chambered in the Model 38 with the Fireball class of cartridges. He recommended I hold onto it. I would be interested to see where this rumor started.

The "rumor" that I posted about did not have anything to do with what guns Cooper was making in-house as far as pressure was concerned. Dan Cooper had concerns about the action and what was happening or what could potentially happen that was caused out of house by independents.

This link is from a discussion a few years back.

http://www.saubier.com/forum/showthread.php?t=33379

I have no certified data on the issue, but back prior to his departure from Cooper in 2008-09, I would guess that Dan might have mentioned his concerns to more than just one or two people.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the Model 38 action, nor is anyone saying that there is. However, if the action is misused by cartridge selection, its a very small action for safely handling pressures and breeching issues that might occur in an action not designed for those extra things to occur. That was a concern for Dan and the small Model 38 action. In addition, as George mentioned in the linked material, the longer cartridges causes ejection problems which in itself was a customer satisfaction concern for Dan.

Also, as John Henry mentioned, the bolt lugs were increased to handle additional pressures generated in the 221 FB family of cartridges, but that too probably did not cause Dan to maybe lose a bit of sleep over what might be happening that was beyond his control to an action that he designed. And what about those actions floating around in the world that someone tried to use for a 221 or 223 sized bolt face cartridge with the older smaller lugs?

Two or three small action failures would have been far more detrimental long-term to Cooper Arms than Dan's political contributions were.........

-BCB
__________________


I miss mean Tweets, competence, and $1.79 per gallon gasoline.

Yo no creo en santos que orinan.

Women and cats will do as they please. Men and dogs should relax and just get used to the idea.

Going keyboard postal over something that you read on the internet is like seeing a pile of dog crap on the sidewalk and choosing to step in it rather than stepping around it.

If You're Afraid To Offend, You Can't Be Honest - Thomas Paine
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 10-19-2020, 05:10 AM
georgeld georgeld is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Pueblo, CO
Posts: 5,832
Send a message via MSN to georgeld
Default

That list don't include the CCM family.
I'd bet there's others missing too.
Good thread guys
__________________
George

"Gun Control is NOT about guns,
it's about CONTROL!!"
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 10-19-2020, 09:03 AM
JohnHenry JohnHenry is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Northern Delaware
Posts: 514
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 218bee View Post
Hey JohnHenry,

I have heard this mentioned many times on this website. When I bought my Model 38 in 20 VT I called Cooper to inquire about it. I was talking with one of their gunsmiths and asked him if they stopped producing it in the Fireball cartridges because the action could not handle it. He said, "No" it had to do with the fact that they did not sell many of them and those cartridges could easily be chambered in the Model 21. According to him it did not make sense to carry an extra action for it. He said there were about 30 rifles chambered in the Model 38 with the Fireball class of cartridges. He recommended I hold onto it. I would be interested to see where this rumor started.
The Model 21 was chambered for the 221FB family of cartridges before the Model 38 was. Trusting my aging memory, I recall a Small Caliber News article on the subject. Even stretching that memory a little further, I believe it may have been written by site Moderator Alex. Give me a day or two to check my Small Caliber News magazines. Also a check to see if my memory is better than Biden's.
__________________
John
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 10-19-2020, 12:59 PM
Kerry Kerry is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: oklahoma panhandle
Posts: 203
Talking

johnhenry your memory is ok
alex did write a article small caliber news vol. 9 no. 3
new cooper model 38 classic in 17 mach IV
there is a picture of the three bolts m-21,m-38 & old m-38 you can see the lugs are longer on the newer m-38
kerry
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 10-19-2020, 01:13 PM
JohnHenry JohnHenry is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Northern Delaware
Posts: 514
Default

Kerry, Thanks for checking. Regards, John
__________________
John
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 10-19-2020, 10:54 PM
thekriebles thekriebles is offline
Supporting Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Collegeville, PA
Posts: 363
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by georgeld View Post
That list don't include the CCM family.
I'd bet there's others missing too.
Good thread guys

Post #7 listed the CCM cartridges.
__________________
NRA Lifetime Endowment Member
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 10-20-2020, 01:42 AM
218bee 218bee is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Virginia
Posts: 415
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kerry View Post
johnhenry your memory is ok
alex did write a article small caliber news vol. 9 no. 3
new cooper model 38 classic in 17 mach IV
there is a picture of the three bolts m-21,m-38 & old m-38 you can see the lugs are longer on the newer m-38
kerry
Could you post the picture? I have a Cooper 38 in 20 VT and Cooper 38 in 22 Hornet and the bolt lugs look the same to me. I would love to a have a reference to see the difference.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 10-20-2020, 01:49 AM
218bee 218bee is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Virginia
Posts: 415
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bayou City Boy View Post
The "rumor" that I posted about did not have anything to do with what guns Cooper was making in-house as far as pressure was concerned. Dan Cooper had concerns about the action and what was happening or what could potentially happen that was caused out of house by independents.

This link is from a discussion a few years back.

http://www.saubier.com/forum/showthread.php?t=33379

I have no certified data on the issue, but back prior to his departure from Cooper in 2008-09, I would guess that Dan might have mentioned his concerns to more than just one or two people.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the Model 38 action, nor is anyone saying that there is. However, if the action is misused by cartridge selection, its a very small action for safely handling pressures and breeching issues that might occur in an action not designed for those extra things to occur. That was a concern for Dan and the small Model 38 action. In addition, as George mentioned in the linked material, the longer cartridges causes ejection problems which in itself was a customer satisfaction concern for Dan.

Also, as John Henry mentioned, the bolt lugs were increased to handle additional pressures generated in the 221 FB family of cartridges, but that too probably did not cause Dan to maybe lose a bit of sleep over what might be happening that was beyond his control to an action that he designed. And what about those actions floating around in the world that someone tried to use for a 221 or 223 sized bolt face cartridge with the older smaller lugs?

Two or three small action failures would have been far more detrimental long-term to Cooper Arms than Dan's political contributions were.........

-BCB
Bayou City Boy,

I found this link to an old thread. Does the picture in it illustrate the difference in bolt lugs which you discussed?

http://www.saubier.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10530
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 10-20-2020, 12:51 PM
Bayou City Boy Bayou City Boy is offline
Supporting Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Tomball/Klein, Texas
Posts: 3,989
Default

Follow Kerry's reference to Small Caliber News.

-BCB
__________________


I miss mean Tweets, competence, and $1.79 per gallon gasoline.

Yo no creo en santos que orinan.

Women and cats will do as they please. Men and dogs should relax and just get used to the idea.

Going keyboard postal over something that you read on the internet is like seeing a pile of dog crap on the sidewalk and choosing to step in it rather than stepping around it.

If You're Afraid To Offend, You Can't Be Honest - Thomas Paine
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 10-20-2020, 01:09 PM
Kerry Kerry is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: oklahoma panhandle
Posts: 203
Default



I hope this works
kerry
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 11:42 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.