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  #11  
Old 11-07-2007, 01:45 AM
george ulrich george ulrich is offline
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jim, my partner and i are the ones that made randys horizontal press it is a clone of the old b&a presses made in the late 50's it works with any 7/8 14 dies at least we havn't had any problems with any yet. george
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  #12  
Old 11-07-2007, 10:50 AM
jim saubier jim saubier is offline
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Default George,

well then, that is good information. you don't happen to have any more of these presses laying around do you? i'd love to see some pics of the presses that you use. Do you like the horizontal press, seems like it would be awkward getting used to setting the jackets in sideways but Randy says that it is very fast for seating cores.
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  #13  
Old 11-07-2007, 10:59 AM
harrens@adelphia.net harrens@adelphia.net is offline
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Greg Siegmond, of Clinch River Bullets, uses horizontal presses. When he saw my vertical set-up he was positive it wouldn't work. DJ has always had his presses "laid back" at about 45 degrees. It goes to show that it all works. It just depends on what you get used to.
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  #14  
Old 11-07-2007, 02:33 PM
Eric Stecker Eric Stecker is offline
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Default My two cents

Many of the bullet makers mentioned are top notch. I would not doubt their methods. I will share with you what we did when Bergers were made by hand.

We used steel tables custom build by a local welder. The portion of the table that the presses were mounted to was an 8" wide U shaped steel beam (the edges of the U faced down). The table was a bit lower than typical tables since this put the press at a more comfortable height for the operator. The presses were mounted near a leg for extra rigidity (legs were 4" X 4" square steel tubing).

The space between the U shaped steel beam and the wall was a simple counter top. We used towels or shallow bowls (labelled with the latest butter Walt had finished) to put the bullets on while they were being fed into the press. The table was mounted to the studs in the wall. It was removeable but you didn't want to (we did move the tables twice and it was not fun).

All the presses used were RCBS. My favorite and the press we had the most of was the A2. Great press but hard to find. We had a few Rock Chuckers which were great for short bullets due to the throw (.800 long or shorter). We also had a few Ammo Masters that were great for the long bullets but needed to be heavily modified because we kept breaking pins, arms and cap screws. They also have trouble holding alignment after several (hundreds of thousands) cycles. In the end the Ammo Master presses looked more custom than stock.

All of our presses are vertical due to Walt's opinion that gravity plays a role in alignment. I know many top bullet makers use horizontal presses and I will not say that they are bad (results show that they work just fine). All of our presses were modified for bullet making of course, which is a simple process if you know what to do or have another set up to copy.

Niemi and Blackmon are the best in the business so I would feel comfortable using any gear they make or recommend. If anyone needs help with bullet making Walt is a great source of assistance. He does not visit the forums so email him directly at bergerltd@aol.com. I will gladly help you as well however I find it difficult to keep up with my communications so your best bet for a rapid response is Walt.

Regards,
Eric
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  #15  
Old 11-07-2007, 11:04 PM
george ulrich george ulrich is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jim saubier View Post
well then, that is good information. you don't happen to have any more of these presses laying around do you? i'd love to see some pics of the presses that you use. Do you like the horizontal press, seems like it would be awkward getting used to setting the jackets in sideways but Randy says that it is very fast for seating cores.
jim, we are making another run right now email me and i will foward pictures to you. this isnt a sales pitch because we are swamped now anyway, but i started making bullets back inthe mid 80's and like about everyone else used rcbs presses i couldnt stand them to much maintnence to slow so i stopped for a while. when i lived outside of lou. ky. i used to travel with bill forrester he used a b&a horizontal press and i decided that was for me so we started making horizontal presses i have had rotater cuff surgery and have no problems with a horizontal press. just for grins we also made a prototype that is verticle with a slower linkage for 30 cal. seems to work fine i just dont do a whole lot of 30's and it is slower. any way if you need any info. just email me i will get back to you. george
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  #16  
Old 11-09-2007, 03:03 PM
jim saubier jim saubier is offline
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Default E-mail sent

I sent you an e-mail. I'd love to see some pics and discuss your presses with you. Drop me an e-mail with your phone number and I'll give you a call.



Eric, thanks for the insight from Berger. It is interesting to hear that you guys used similar equipment to what I'm using, your operators must have looked like Popeye. Are you able to share pics of your equipment now?
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  #17  
Old 11-10-2007, 02:15 PM
Randy Robinett Randy Robinett is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Stecker View Post
. . . All of our presses are vertical due to Walt's opinion that gravity plays a role in alignment. I know many top bullet makers use horizontal presses and I will not say that they are bad (results show that they work just fine). . .
Regards,
Eric
The B&A clones, which George makes are most excellent. While I [mostly] agree with Walt regarding gravity - for pointing, where, except for the die cavity, there is no means of aligning the punch (all of my RCBS presses - those which are dedicated to pointing- are kept vertical). However, for core seating, a little punch droop is not a bad thing, thus most of my RCBS core-seating presses are mounted at angles varying between about 45 and 70 degrees. Punch droop is not a "bad thing" where the punch base is not held rigid, but rather, "floats", and is kept "square" by pressure (as in Niemi press conversions); punch/jacket fit assures perfect alignment, thus uniform "bleed-by" of the core.

The punch arrangement on George's B&A clones accommodates adjusting the punch for alignmnet, while PREVENTING droop; once set, the punch, though not completely rigid, maintains it's horizontal position quite nicely. I verify this by partially ejecting a cored jacket: I push the lever until the jacket mouth is just at the die-cavity mouth, then, pull the lever to reinsert the punch into the cored jacket - a properly centered punch will not contact the jacket mouth/walls. Then, I partially "seat" a core, so that it sticks on the punch; the lever is activated until the base of the cored jacket clears the die-cavity mouth, then, reinsert same into the die - when the cored jacket/ punch re-enters the die, there should be no detectable movement of the jacket/punch.

Setting this is quite simple and holds up until I either screw-up (going to fast) or, complete a jacket/core "lot" and change the "settings".

My sole caution for George's press - keep the ways lubricated! I galled the ways on one press TWICE (yes, even using plenty of lube!) - following the second "wreck", I disassembled the press and, using 320 grit compound, lapped the ways - that was LONG time and many thousands of bullets ago! (Note: both incidents "happened" without either audible or tactile warning - neither drag nor scratching - just LOCKED-UP!) The "scratch" marks (from the laping) seem to hold lube well: I use a high pressure "moly" lube to keep the ways slippery.

In my experience/opinion, there is no better core-seating press than the B&A clones made by George and his partner. For pointing thrity caliber bullets, they are somewhat lacking in power (leverage) - however, for 22/6MM/25 calibers (and of course, smaller), these presses are tough to beat!

I have gone ballistic, and now prefer modified LEE CLASSIC CAST presses for pointing and squirting - as Ferris Pendell advised some pals of mine - these presses are DEAD NUTS square! My pals wouldn't believe it . . . but being an idiot (not - Mr. Pendell wasn't born yesterday!), I bought five of them: I took a brand new Niemei point-up die and screwed it into each of the presses, then, slid the point-up punch into the shell holder slot (on the ram) - by chance the punch base is a near perfect fit for the Niemi punch-base diameter - then, carefully, moved the lever, to insert the punch into the die! There was not the slightest detectable misalignmnet, either radial or axial, on any of the five presses! They also enjoy several other features which make them more suited to bullet swaging than the RCBS offerings - but that's a lot of info/time.

I didn't intend to hijack this thread - my benches are quite rigid 2.5" thick (doubled-up computer lab bench tops which I purchased - CHEAP - at a sale), with a fromica finish. At the wall, the the bottom layer is screwed to the top edge of a 2x4, which is held to the wall with "tapcon" screws (the wall is 6" thick 4 ton concrete);then, from the underside, the top layer is screwed and glued to the bottom layer. At each press station, is a steel pipe leg, with flanges at both top and bottom: the flanges are "Tapconed" to the floor and screwed to the underside of the double-thick counter top. It's very rigid. Better yet - the tops are a mere 18 inches deep, thus cannot collect a lot of JUNK! Further, it's very easy to reach shelves above the bench top.
RG

P.S. Jim, I had to re-register under a "new" name, as I changed e-mail addresses - if this isn't acceptable, please let me know!

Last edited by Randy Robinett; 11-13-2007 at 04:46 PM.
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  #18  
Old 11-10-2007, 10:44 PM
jim saubier jim saubier is offline
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Default Randy.

thanks for the insight. I'd like to hear more about the Lee point up presses that you've come up with. We are using a modified RCBS press, not a rockchucker actually, but the newer style press that Niemi made for us. I then had a handle made at the machine shop at work. The extra leverage was a welcome addition for pointing up.

After talking to George today on the phone, I've ordered one of his vertical presses for core seating. I may try it for pointing up as well but it is intended to be used first for core seating.

I'd like to see/hear more about your Lee press that you are using for pointing up the big bullets. I tried to call you yesterday but you were out.

George, thanks for the call and the conversation. It was a pleasure.
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  #19  
Old 11-11-2007, 07:07 PM
Randy Robinett Randy Robinett is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jim saubier View Post
thanks for the insight. I'd like to hear more about the Lee point up presses that you've come up with. We are using a modified RCBS press, not a rockchucker actually, but the newer style press that Niemi made for us. I then had a handle made at the machine shop at work. The extra leverage was a welcome addition for pointing up.

After talking to George today on the phone, I've ordered one of his vertical presses for core seating. I may try it for pointing up as well but it is intended to be used first for core seating.

I'd like to see/hear more about your Lee press that you are using for pointing up the big bullets. I tried to call you yesterday but you were out.

George, thanks for the call and the conversation. It was a pleasure.
Jim, I do a lot of pointing on a pair of RCBS AMMO MASTER presses, which were converted by Bill and Brain Niemi - they have held up ok, but need an occasional re-build.

Rather than hijack this thread, if you'd like, I will make some pics of my LEE Classic Cast conversion - anybody with a lathe and access to either a milling machine or, decent drill press, can do the conversion - and begin a new thread. I'm not certain that I can post pics here - well, without going through a host site, i.e., photobucket, etc.

The only thing "wrong" with the LEE Classic Cast iron presses - they're RED! They are INEXPENSIVE, well engineered and exceptionally well machined - in the USA! The initial conversion has held up well, but has, to date only pointed about 100,000 bullets. RG

Last edited by Randy Robinett; 11-13-2007 at 04:49 PM.
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  #20  
Old 11-15-2007, 06:57 PM
Eric Stecker Eric Stecker is offline
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For the record, Randy is one of the top bullet makers so pay attention cause he knows what he is talking about.

Regards,
Eric
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