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  #11  
Old 04-11-2009, 08:52 PM
Al Nyhus Al Nyhus is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trevj View Post
Been getting more interested in going small, as well as looking at getting started swaging.

Wondering what the price of admission is. Dies from the Corbins are pretty clearly priced, but I see other folks mentioned, but have not found much other info when I search the names at the time.

What's a set of dies, suitable for use in a decent reloading press, gonna cost a guy?
And who are the options besides the Corbins, that are still in business?

Cheers
Trev

Trev: Are you interested in simply making bullets or in making BR accuracy grade bullets?

Some dies make bullets. And some dies really make bullets. Big difference when you're thinking about whose dies to buy......
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  #12  
Old 04-13-2009, 04:12 AM
trevj trevj is offline
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I'm interested in making bullets, to start out. Decent ones is a pretty reasonable aim. Benchrest. Not my game.

I'm pretty sure most of the bench rest guys throw away barrels that shoot better than I can.
(I need to find some of those guys to scrounge barrels off!)

I've flung my share of cheap ammo at gophers and starlings, and they never knew they were hit off from where I aimed by just a little bit, if you know what I mean.
Bugholes are a nice hobby, for them that wish to pursue that particular pursuit, but I'm more interested in adequate accuracy for the ranges I will be shooting at, and a level of self sustenance in the ammo dept.


Cheers
Trev
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  #13  
Old 04-13-2009, 10:43 AM
harrens@adelphia.net harrens@adelphia.net is offline
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Default Swaging bullets

Having spent a good deal of money in bullet making equipment and materials, I would not recommend getting into making my own so-so bullets. If you are not really concerned with extreme accuracy, then factory 2nd's and blems are the alternative. You can buy a heck of a lot of factory bullets with the dough it takes to set up and make your own! Plus you'll have more time to shoot. Bullet making is tedious and time consuming.
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  #14  
Old 04-13-2009, 03:24 PM
trevj trevj is offline
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The factory blems and seconds would be a wonderful source of bullets, if they were readily available this side of the US/Canada border.

At best, we seem to get stuck paying full retail, at worst, gouged. I look at the deals that show on Midway's site at times and almost drool.

Not enough market up here to support a local volume manufacturer, and a bushel basket of paperwork to import bullets, thanks to the US State Dept, and the good folks of Homeland Security.

Met a fellow this weekend that was selling his 22 caliber home-rolled's at a gun show. He said he was using a set of Corbin dies, bought many years back, when prices and availability were both pretty reasonable.
Saw some old Herters swaging dies at the same show, missing some parts. Didn't even ask price, as they were large calibers, not what I am after.

As to tedious and time consuming. Maybe. I've got all winter to do such things though, and I find that a stretch at the bench doing something that requires a little concentration, to be a vacation from anything else I might be doing. We all have different ideas of fun, eh?

Cheers
Trev
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  #15  
Old 04-13-2009, 07:23 PM
LC Smith LC Smith is offline
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Trev,
PM sent.
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  #16  
Old 04-13-2009, 10:51 PM
MIBULLETS MIBULLETS is offline
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gunhaus,

Was that for 17 cal bullets or larger? Not as much effort on the handle for the smaller bullets.
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  #17  
Old 04-14-2009, 02:09 PM
gunhaus gunhaus is offline
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It's not a matter of being able to generate enough pressure with the hand press, but too much. You can indeed form solid copper bullets with hand dies and presses, but it's playing with fire. It would take only a fairly tiny mistake to burst a die under the pressure required to form up solid copper to final diameter. Most hand press dies are either 5/8 or 7/8 diameter, as compared to the 1.5" diameter of the hydraulic press dies. Some years ago, I split a 17 cal core seat die with a very heavy drawn jacket, and a tiny little lead core that was bonded in. If you can break one with copper and lead . . .

On our hydraulic presses we do solid copper/hp 23 calibers all the time without problems. The internal punches are big enough to with stand a good deal of pressure without folding. When we first experiemented with the 204's we followed the same proceedure we used with the 23's: We cut sections of wire that were just under diameter (.201") then we weighed them to keep the samples as uniform as possible. Then they go into a core seat die with a punch that just fits the internal diameter of the die (These have to be very close) With carefull adjustment we then bring this copper billet up to a diameter just below finished diameter (Around .20385") we then use a type of center drill to put in the HP, and to create a taper/camfer at the mouth so the ogive will form into a good radius, and the meplat will form reasonably square and clean. Then we point up like normal.

The thing is, a "cull" billet somehow wandered into the good pile, and when it went into the coreseat die and cycled it simply folded up the internal punch and actually created a slight "bulge" inside the die. This rouge billet weighed
.4 more than the good billets. Now if this had been in a hand press what might the outcome have been? Sure, you may have felt the increased pressure. . . But maybe not. It was an expensive lesson. (Incidently, we try to hold out tolerances to .05 gr + or - for a total of .1gr or less) We've been working on a new die/internal punch/external punch combo that should give us some "forgiveness" in the system. As we move down in caliber to .172" the internal parts are obviously even small and the potential for breakage is obviously higher.

The real fly in the solid bullet, is making a very precise and uniform copper billet, in a reasonably fast manner, with equipment that is affordable for the small shop. We can make solid/hp copper bullets right now with very good precision, with our current lathe and saw set ups. . . But they are tediously slow to make, and would have to sell for far more than most guys are going to be willing to pay.

There are also some details involving the depth of the hole. Not deep enough and the bullet gets to be very difficult to form. Too deep, and the ogive will collapse around the hole from lack of support.

None of this is insurmountable, and in fact we think we are pretty close right now
-John
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  #18  
Old 04-14-2009, 07:54 PM
trevj trevj is offline
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I was very close to buying a CNC lathe that would have been a shoo-in for that sort of operation, one of many that occurred to me that it would work for. Sadly, it did not happen.

I have been looking at the rotary broaches and wondering if they are available (and still durable enough) in sizes small enough to form a hex or octagonal recess in the bullet blank to allow for expansion in a controlled manner, a-la the Barnes copper slugs, and wondering if that is the approach they used, or if they just swaged the recess before point forming, to develop the petals. I sort of suspect the latter.

Cheers
Trev
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  #19  
Old 04-14-2009, 09:00 PM
Al Nyhus Al Nyhus is offline
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trev: One 'must' for any aspiring bullet maker is to educate themselves on the 'expand up' principle of bullet making pioneered by Biehler and Astles.

Two great articles are in the Benchrest Shooting Primer. Required reading, in my opinion. Once you grasp the why's of how the expand up prinicple works, you'll understand why this process makes the best bullets. Forget about the lathe turned stuff. There is much, much more to a bullets performance than external dimensions.

I really sympathize with the situation Canadians find themselves in re: U.S. export policy post 9-11. One thing to check with....even though jackets aren't in effect 'completed' bullets, is there any issue with importing them? A quick call to Berger/J4 would be in order. If they can ship jackets to Canada with no issues, your problems are solved! All you need is a reliable source of core material and a great set of dies and you're in business.

Larry Blackmon makes killer tool steel dies. For less than $1,000 you can be in business. George Ulrich makes great dies and equipment and posts here..not sure if he does .17 cal. dies or if George's dies are exclusively carbide? Neimi Engineering is another great source of dies, presses..everything you need. I know that Dave Detsch is continuing the die making his father did for many years. So there are several choices when it come to quality dies. These are all quality people/companies that will supply good products and help you through the process after the sale.

It takes the same effort and $ to make good bullets as it does to make bad ones. Stick with the die mfgs. that turn out quality products.

Not hard to connect the dots.....if you know what I mean?

Last edited by Al Nyhus; 04-16-2009 at 01:23 AM.
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  #20  
Old 04-14-2009, 09:25 PM
trevj trevj is offline
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Oh, I do know what you mean!

Been reading through the B&A stuff that I can find online, and the Corbin's stuff on both their respective sites.

As far as the lathe goes, I draw your attention to the factual price that the 50 cal guys are paying up here, thanks to the aforementioned agencies, for good quality bullets at retail. A box of 20 , with 20 primers included, is retailing for $89. .408 projectiles are going for slightly less. A box of suitable primers is retailing at the same source, for about $65. Used pulled bullets of no particular pedigree are running the range from $1.50 on up.

That was really where I was eyeing up when I was dealing on the lathe. Selling to guys used to those prices, would allow me to not worry too much about the cost or availability of the small stuff. Stuff like copper solids was something I was looking at for interests sake, though if it panned out into something of use... That deal did not go, though, so ...

As to the makers of dies. Thanks for the good word. I am a bit surprised how many folk have gone to the trouble of waving me away from considering bullet making.

Cheers
Trev
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