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  #21  
Old 01-08-2021, 04:44 AM
GLWenzl GLWenzl is offline
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For some reason these photos show up on my screen. I’ll try another link-

http://www.saubier.com/forum/picture...pictureid=1836




http://www.saubier.com/forum/picture...pictureid=1837
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Last edited by GLWenzl; 01-09-2021 at 12:50 PM.
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  #22  
Old 01-08-2021, 03:30 PM
Bayou City Boy Bayou City Boy is offline
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Gary.........

As an old friend who has personally known you for a long time, before I did any modifications to the die itself, I would try the extended shell holder when you get it as Al suggested. I'm guessing that is your plan, but I'm not certain. If it works, life goes on. It sounds like from Al's comments that he has a good handle on the issue, including the Lock-N'-Load stuff, from experience.

JMO - but at this point, its best to leave Hornady and anyone else out of any further discussions, good or bad. Nothing positive will come about from any of those online discussions. Some will pat you on the back and some will condemn you for your comments.

For me the biggest problem is the frosted cartridge case issue. Is there anyone nearby who can fix the frosted case issue? Or do you think that Neil Jones would address that issue if you brought it to his attention? It sounds like the inside of the die definitely needs polished, but as I'm sure that you know, it must be done without changing any critical inside die measurements.

As for the engraving of the name, that should be an easy fix in you area.

Good luck......... And give me a call. I'm a good listener most of the time unless my cell phone ear piece is vibrating, which I'm sure is not a part of your normal approach...

-BCB
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  #23  
Old 01-08-2021, 05:11 PM
AzSam AzSam is offline
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Of coarse there two sides to the story. In the end it is only the 2 parties involved that know the full story.

All of us spend a lot of money on our sport and it is not unreasonable to expect the product or service to be right the first time, if not then take ownership of it and make it right. However for whatever the reason that does not always happen.

I had a rifle barrel relined several years ago by nationally advertised shop out of N. Dakota. The owner asked me to provide in writing what other work I would like done in addition to the re-line, gave me a quote, and I shipped the rifle. He called me when he finished the work to let know the rifle was on way, during the call he complained repeatedly about how much it cost him in material and and that he felt like he lost money on it because it took so long, blah blah, blah, boo hoo, poor me.

When the rifle showed up, the only thing that was done was the re-line, which was off center at the muzzle and the front sight has to be drifted almost 1/8" from center in order to have a "0" center on the rear sight.
He came highly recommended from others that I shot with, so being the trusting soul, paying cash I did not feel was an issue.

Bottom line, the work cannot be made right, after the above phone with him, I have no doubt what-so-ever that he would have done all possible to weasel out of it, or do a half-a....d job on the other work that was to have done the first time around. Had payment been via credit card, he would have had 2 choices, make it right or eat it.

The question is, would it be worth the time and effort to call and try and listen to him whine and snivel for another 10 mins. So I can ether deal with it and help spare others the same misery and steer them away, use it for tomato state or jack handle, sell it, or wait for a gun by back.

I have spent over 35 years in high customer service on the international corporate level and 3 of the basic rules are:

1. Take ownership of issue and honestly do your best to resolve, it is rare that something cannot be done.
2. There is a clear an distinct difference between "can't" and "won't".
3. Happy customers are repeat customer, it is much easier to keep a customer than finding a new one.

We can listen, and formulate our own opinions, but as I said earlier, "In the end it is only both parties that know the full story". Each of them need to sort out what is honest and appropriate between each other.
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  #24  
Old 01-08-2021, 06:09 PM
GLWenzl GLWenzl is offline
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Hey Hal, I do have an extended SH ordered and plan to do as both Neil and Al suggested.

And you are correct about being unclear. My intention was that if I have to have the die modified to change the name, then I might as well have who ever takes a cut on the OD of the die to remove the name, go a head and take a cut on the shoulder so I can use the die without an extended shell holder. Maybe I am being unreasonable about having a custom die customized so I can use it like I want? I am weird this way. For instance, I always remove the die like rain on all non-Hornady reloading days and replace them with the Hornady split but lock ring.

I just told Ray that this really took the fun out of it. I’m not sure there is anything that can be done to where I’m going to be happy with it. I currently feel deeply hurt and and my heart is aching. I honestly/truthfully just feel like getting out of my longtime hobby all together. Not that I will but just feel like I don’t even want anything to do with reloading at the moment. I was in the reloading room playing last night and all morning. The dies NeiL made work, from as near as I can tell Neil did a fantastic job on fitting the dies to the chamber of both rifles. I plan to take a long break from reloading and devote this time to either a charity or something I can do to help someone else to get my mind off of it. Plus I already spend a lot of time with my new grandsons but now will try even more, they do my heart good and right now I need some heart healing. Although the patents may say I just need to move in LOL luckily they are both in the same town not far apart but I do have our first granddaughter coming soon out in Denver.

I can neither confirm or deny if Neil would do anything about the frosted brass issue. Let’s Hal, if he would not correct the name on the die, or customize the die to fit my LnL press, I highly doubt that NeiL would do anything warranty wise for me.

My honest “opinion“ based on my experience with Neil Jones is that he would become defensive and tell me I screwed them up because he doesn’t make any mistakes. But who knows without calling? I just would rather not have to listen to him again after he refused to help me out with the issues I did discuss with him.

And I apologize up front but I do not understand your comment about Hornady? As a Hornady press user, I would like to know the details up front about not being able to use NeiL Jones dies with LNL bushing without using an extended shell holder. Hornady just happens to be a part of this factual issue and is mentioned neither good or bad just a fact. I am not attaching Hornady or NeiL Jones but just sharing my experience.

I just gave 1k WLPs and 1K WRPs to a new reloader guy local here because he bought a new press and had all the reloading components except these. I told him I don’t want money, just replace them down the road when (if) they become available again. I also just requested an address from an 83-year-old small caliber guy in Iowa so I can send him a 17 Jet full length die set for free. Also just found a good to give away my Zeiss Victoria 10x rangefinder which does my heart some good.

Hoping to get a few extra miles on my bike, that always good for me!
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  #25  
Old 01-08-2021, 06:12 PM
GLWenzl GLWenzl is offline
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Well said and thank you for sharing, I appreciate it.

Edit I like what you said and I’m the whiner right now and full of self pity or regrets. That said I am not proud OR ashamed of my feelings. They are what they are. But like I have told my 6 kids over and over; don’t get bitter, get better... just know that sometimes you can’t help but to get bitter, it will happen, just recognize it right away and begin to get better. That is where I’m at right now, working on getting better and finding the good from this experience.


Quote:
Originally Posted by AzSam View Post
Of coarse there two sides to the story. In the end it is only the 2 parties involved that know the full story.

All of us spend a lot of money on our sport and it is not unreasonable to expect the product or service to be right the first time, if not then take ownership of it and make it right. However for whatever the reason that does not always happen.

I had a rifle barrel relined several years ago by nationally advertised shop out of N. Dakota. The owner asked me to provide in writing what other work I would like done in addition to the re-line, gave me a quote, and I shipped the rifle. He called me when he finished the work to let know the rifle was on way, during the call he complained repeatedly about how much it cost him in material and and that he felt like he lost money on it because it took so long, blah blah, blah, boo hoo, poor me.

When the rifle showed up, the only thing that was done was the re-line, which was off center at the muzzle and the front sight has to be drifted almost 1/8" from center in order to have a "0" center on the rear sight.
He came highly recommended from others that I shot with, so being the trusting soul, paying cash I did not feel was an issue.

Bottom line, the work cannot be made right, after the above phone with him, I have no doubt what-so-ever that he would have done all possible to weasel out of it, or do a half-a....d job on the other work that was to have done the first time around. Had payment been via credit card, he would have had 2 choices, make it right or eat it.

The question is, would it be worth the time and effort to call and try and listen to him whine and snivel for another 10 mins. So I can ether deal with it and help spare others the same misery and steer them away, use it for tomato state or jack handle, sell it, or wait for a gun by back.

I have spent over 35 years in high customer service on the international corporate level and 3 of the basic rules are:

1. Take ownership of issue and honestly do your best to resolve, it is rare that something cannot be done.
2. There is a clear an distinct difference between "can't" and "won't".
3. Happy customers are repeat customer, it is much easier to keep a customer than finding a new one.

We can listen, and formulate our own opinions, but as I said earlier, "In the end it is only both parties that know the full story". Each of them need to sort out what is honest and appropriate between each other.
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Last edited by GLWenzl; 01-08-2021 at 06:19 PM.
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  #26  
Old 01-08-2021, 06:23 PM
Bayou City Boy Bayou City Boy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GLWenzl View Post
Hey Hal, I do have an extended SH ordered and plan to do as both Neil and Al suggested.

And you are correct about being unclear. My intention was that if I have to have the die modified to change the name, then I might as well have who ever takes a cut on the OD of the die to remove the name, go a head and take a cut on the shoulder so I can use the die without an extended shell holder. Maybe I am being unreasonable about having a custom die customized so I can use it like I want? I am weird this way. For instance, I always remove the die like rain on all non-Hornady reloading days and replace them with the Hornady split but lock ring.

I just told Ray that this really took the fun out of it. I’m not sure there is anything that can be done to where I’m going to be happy with it. I currently feel deeply hurt and and my heart is aching. I honestly/truthfully just feel like getting out of my longtime hobby all together. Not that I will but just feel like I don’t even want anything to do with reloading at the moment. I was in the reloading room playing last night and all morning. The dies NeiL made work, from as near as I can tell Neil did a fantastic job on fitting the dies to the chamber of both rifles. I plan to take a long break from reloading and devote this time to either a charity or something I can do to help someone else to get my mind off of it. Plus I already spend a lot of time with my new grandsons but now will try even more, they do my heart good and right now I need some heart healing. Although the patents may say I just need to move in LOL luckily they are both in the same town not far apart but I do have our first granddaughter coming soon out in Denver.

I can neither confirm or deny if Neil would do anything about the frosted brass issue. Let’s Hal, if he would not correct the name on the die, or customize the die to fit my LnL press, I highly doubt that NeiL would do anything warranty wise for me.

My honest “opinion“ based on my experience with Neil Jones is that he would become defensive and tell me I screwed them up because he doesn’t make any mistakes. But who knows without calling? I just would rather not have to listen to him again after he refused to help me out with the issues I did discuss with him.

And I apologize up front but I do not understand your comment about Hornady? As a Hornady press user, I would like to know the details up front about not being able to use NeiL Jones dies with LNL bushing without using an extended shell holder. Hornady just happens to be a part of this factual issue and is mentioned neither good or bad just a fact. I am not attaching Hornady or NeiL Jones but just sharing my experience.

I just gave 1k WLPs and 1K WRPs to a new reloader guy local here because he bought a new press and had all the reloading components except these. I told him I don’t want money, just replace them down the road when (if) they become available again. I also just requested an address from an 83-year-old small caliber guy in Iowa so I can send him a 17 Jet full length die set for free. Also just found a good to give away my Zeiss Victoria 10x rangefinder which does my heart some good.

Hoping to get a few extra miles on my bike, that always good for me!

Gary......

My comment about Hornady was not meant as a criticism of anyone or anything. I doubt that Hornady has any concrete information that says to use or not use their press with Jones diues. I'd go with Al's experiiece first.

No harm intended.

-BCB
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I miss mean Tweets, competence, and $1.79 per gallon gasoline.

Yo no creo en santos que orinan.

Women and cats will do as they please. Men and dogs should relax and just get used to the idea.

Going keyboard postal over something that you read on the internet is like seeing a pile of dog crap on the sidewalk and choosing to step in it rather than stepping around it.

If You're Afraid To Offend, You Can't Be Honest - Thomas Paine
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  #27  
Old 01-08-2021, 06:31 PM
GLWenzl GLWenzl is offline
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I gotcha just for clarification the only reason I was going to contact Hornady for anything at all was to make me a set of dies for the 17 Wenzl Special. I have three sets of the Hornady custom dies and I know what to expect from past dealings with him. They are truly custom and will make them to fit my needs (especially like they did with the 17&20 killer bee).

But at this point I’ve come to learn there is nothing very special anymore about the 17 WenzEl special.

I was considering having Hornady make me a new set because, if I go to a machinist/smith type of person, $150 doesn’t go very far and at that point I might was well put the hard earned cash towards something I can be happy with and proud of.
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Last edited by GLWenzl; 01-08-2021 at 06:33 PM.
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  #28  
Old 01-08-2021, 07:22 PM
jwv2001 jwv2001 is offline
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Default I have read and re-read your post ...

.. several times. I can't find anywhere that the question of frosted brass has been answered. This really has peaked my curiosity. Are you saying that if you run a polished case through the die and it comes out frosted? I would think that would be a strong indication of a problem with die.
So when you talk about frosted brass, could you please explain.
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  #29  
Old 01-08-2021, 07:48 PM
Bill K Bill K is offline
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Or could it be the lube used
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  #30  
Old 01-08-2021, 08:31 PM
GLWenzl GLWenzl is offline
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Yes, as in the one photo, it shows the frosted looking brass. The brass was not really polished but had more of a dull normal look as you can see below the Frost line on the head of the case. This was just a pieces of brass that had been formed by me years ago, and already shot in the chamber. I lubed it with imperial sizing wax and that is how it came out.

I also noticed that the brass wants to stick in the die a little bit when forming cases. It sort of pops lose when it comes out.

I might get blasted by others for saying this, but I’m not overly concerned about that. Yes, for what I paid I should expect more however it is a tad bit better after running a bunch of cases through it. The 17 Jet die is not as bad.

I can somewhat live with this issue as I have made my own forming dies many years ago from drill rod. I didn’t spend hours and hours on them because I wasn’t even sure if they was going to work. Well they worked just fine but they frost the brass very bad. I polish the dies the best I could and over the years of use they’ve gotten a little better. After I was done forming the cases I would put it in a shell holde & drill then spin it in fine steel wool to make it look pretty which is not my top priority.

My ONLY issues with Neil Jones custom products are that #1 he would not help me resolve my issue with the misspelled name on the die. And #2 his ONLY option to resolve my LNL bushing issue was to use an extended shell holder when I would have gladly even paid him money to very slightly modify both of the dies shoulder s so I could use them as I intended. Because I knew I was going to have to pay someone to fix it no matter what.

Now for a BIG laugh at my expense.. I have never ever ever ever ever seen a need for using an extended shell holder. I could never figure out why they even made them. I will load everything from tiny tiny short cases up to a 7 mm STW. Over 60 sets of reloading dies and all kinds of wildcats both small calibers As well as larger bores based on the 30-30 case and I’ve never seen the need.

Now I get Neils regarding dies and they are required it was just very hard for me to understand this.

Well sometime ago I decided that although the Hornady neck turning tool has worked OK for me and it has done a lot of necks.... well I certainly didn’t need it but I wanted the K&M neck turning equipment. I was working on 20 caliber stuff at the time and that’s all I’ve ever used for but I also bought 17 and 22 caliber as well as 6.5 accessories.

So late last night I’m forming brass again for 17 Wenzl special and a 17 Jet. Not production work, just a few pieces (10) to see how these dies are going to work. So I get them all formed and before going to bed I wanted to complete them by turning the necks to the right thickness. I get out the K&M 17 caliber neck expander and swap out the 20 caliber expander for the 17 in the holder which by the way has a Hornaday LNL bushing. I put it in the press and couldn’t believe my eyes The shorter 17 jet would not go up into the expander tool far enough to expand the entire neck. The first thing that came to mind was I just told Al that I’ve never seen I need for an extended SH....I couldn’t believe it, 40 years of reloading and never once the need for an extended shell holder. Then all of a sudden‘s twice within the same week??? I had to laugh even though I wanted to cry... at this point I dig out a very old antique POS Pacific press that was my dad‘s and the one I started out on and threaded in the K&M Neck expanding tool wondering how in the world do people get anything done when they’re not using something like the LNL bushings lol

I almost felt like the good Lord is making his presence known to me and humbling me and allowing me to have some black feathers hanging out of my mouth
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