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  #31  
Old 09-21-2020, 08:02 PM
Nor Cal Mikie Nor Cal Mikie is offline
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Whatever brass "neck size" you end up with, figure maybe .002 to .003 over that for the chamber neck size. A .254 neck seems a little fat to me?
If they are in fact THAT THICK, turn a few and see how they look. I would be concerned that they would be a little on the thin side?
Keep in mind, they WILL change as they get fired and resized.

In your first post you mentioned sizing some Lapua brass to 20 VT and the loaded neck came out to came out to .248?
You can't size it down .020. It has to be neck turned!! That's pretty thick brass. (Mikie likes it)
If it was consistent and you had a GOOD STASH, I'd be tempted to go with a .250 or .251 neck.
Whatever brass you end up using, don't turn it anymore than you need to.
And if my thinking is off, don't anybody be afraid to jump in and correct me.

Last edited by Nor Cal Mikie; 09-21-2020 at 08:18 PM.
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  #32  
Old 09-21-2020, 10:00 PM
mefizto mefizto is offline
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Hi Bill K,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill K View Post
So neck turning is not a issue, with the proper equipment.
Could you advise what you consider a "proper equipment"?

Hi Nor Cal Mikie,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nor Cal Mikie View Post
Whatever brass "neck size" you end up with, figure maybe .002 to .003 over that for the chamber neck size. A .254 neck seems a little fat to me?
Thank you for the tolerance recommendation.

Your neck confusion is due to my arguably imprecise language. As I have Lapua .221 FB to use as a reference, I am resizing to these dimensions for learning purposes, with the ultimate goal to be VarTarg.

The resized .223 case measures the 0.254 inch. so, subtracting 0.02 for the further resizing to VarTarg, the resulting dimension will be 0.234 inch. Hence my question whether the difference of turning by 0.002 inch or 0.004 inch make a difference. Essentially, the question is whether it is better to have thinner, thicker, or does not matter brass on the neck.

Did I muddy the water even more? I am very good at it. ;-(

Kindest regards,

M

Last edited by mefizto; 09-21-2020 at 10:15 PM.
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  #33  
Old 09-21-2020, 11:03 PM
Bill K Bill K is offline
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A good neck turning tool that several put on the market. I use the Hornady one, but also have a small hand turning one, from another company.
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  #34  
Old 09-22-2020, 01:01 PM
Nor Cal Mikie Nor Cal Mikie is offline
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The further we dig, the more muddy the water gets. We WILL get it sorted out for you.

I didn't want to neck turn but finally gave in and found out it wasn't as bad as I had made it out to be.
Got my neck turning tools from K&M. Maybe a little expensive compared to others but all good stuff.
You need to check them out and watch a few videos so you'll see what it takes.
I would rather be pulling the trigger than be stuck turning brass.
Anything necked down will have fat necks so it's almost a must.
That moved brass has to go somewhere and it ends up in the neck that in turn, has to be turned off to fit the chamber neck.
If it was me starting out, I would be looking to see what reamers are available before I decided on a neck size.
I found out about fat necks when my newly formed VT brass wouldn't chamber. In my case, no getting around neck turning. Mike.

Last edited by Nor Cal Mikie; 09-22-2020 at 01:03 PM.
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  #35  
Old 09-22-2020, 01:06 PM
L.Sherm L.Sherm is offline
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I have made probably 1500 - 20VT and 20SCC cases from LC 223 brass its really not that difficult with the right tools.
I use Bullberry double ended forming dies to get them down to the proper shoulder length then a mini chop saw with a stop to cut the extra neck length off anneal then run through my FL sizer and turn necks to .228 loaded for a .232 20VT chamber neck.
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  #36  
Old 09-22-2020, 06:51 PM
mefizto mefizto is offline
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Hi Nor Cal Mikie,

thank you for your patience. Unless I am missing some concepts, there are two issues left:

1. Does the thickness of the brass matter. I am neither metallurgist nor experienced re-loader to answer the question. In other words, will a thicker brass, e.g., turned down to 0.230 with chamber 0.234 last longer than a thinner brass turned down to 0.228 inch with chamber 0.232 inch? And even if there is a difference, is it practical one?

2. What is the "best" tool, the term "best" being defined as one that is easy to set up and operate. It seems to me that I would rather save pennies and buy such a tool than be cheap and frustrated by the awkwardness and time to make the tool to operate.

Hi L.Sherm,

do you have any opinion on the two questions?

Kindest regards,

M
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  #37  
Old 09-22-2020, 08:56 PM
JohnHenry JohnHenry is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mefizto View Post
Hi Nor Cal Mikie,

thank you for your patience. Unless I am missing some concepts, there are two issues left:

1. Does the thickness of the brass matter. I am neither metallurgist nor experienced re-loader to answer the question. In other words, will a thicker brass, e.g., turned down to 0.230 with chamber 0.234 last longer than a thinner brass turned down to 0.228 inch with chamber 0.232 inch? And even if there is a difference, is it practical one?

2. What is the "best" tool, the term "best" being defined as one that is easy to set up and operate. It seems to me that I would rather save pennies and buy such a tool than be cheap and frustrated by the awkwardness and time to make the tool to operate.

Hi L.Sherm,

do you have any opinion on the two questions?

Kindest regards,

M
M, For some there may be an important third issue left. Which route to 20VT brass yields the best accuracy?
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  #38  
Old 09-22-2020, 09:25 PM
mefizto mefizto is offline
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Hi 410gauge,

I appreciate your well meaning post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 410gauge View Post
mefizto..."However, the problem of finding a lot of ammunition and then needing to buy a great amount, with its associated financial outlay, is what drove me from 22 lr to small case center-fire."

mefizto, small case cf "ain't' cheap if that's what you are looking for. If you reload a ton, you'll still be looking at around $.30-.35 cents a round if you can get a case to reload eight times or more.
There are several retorts that I would offer. First, my .22 lr is custom built with a match chamber, so a premium .22 lr is needed. Considering the prices of such e.g., Elley, Lapua, ranging from ~$0.26/round to 0.40/round. One can buy a cheaper one, but (1) it must chamber and (2) shoot well. That means buying and trying, and then acquiring a lot of ammunition in hopefully the same or close lot. In this regard, your figure of $0.31/round, which is very close to mine based on estimated 10 re-loads, is perfectly acceptable to me.

Second, or perhaps a corollary of the first, it is my understanding that once an acceptable load for the center-fire is establish, the rifle will shoot well for a long time. Thus, no repeated testing of ammunition.

Finally, I am not sure that I mentioned a price per se, but rather the need of great monetary outlay when buying a lot of ammunition at one time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 410gauge View Post
You are getting the straight skinny from guys like Sherm and others on this forum. They are really trying to help you.
Indeed. I understand it, and appreciate it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 410gauge View Post
My suggestion would be to stay with a .232" chamber neck (the old orginial TK design) for a no turn neck with RP .221 Fireball brass. It's still available. I just finished up last night reloading over 1100 rds of 20VT from this past season. Most is RP .221 Fireball brass. A lot of it has been reload 5-6 times and some of it as high as 8 times. I've heard all the war stories about the quality of this brass for many years...but I've had good luck with it.
So, are you suggesting that the thinner neck of the brass is not a detriment in the number of reloads? If that is the case, Nor Cal Mikie's suggestion to look for available reamer first has merit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 410gauge View Post
I also have made many pcs of 20 VT from LC and even 204 Ruger brass. That has worked also...but takes some work. You might consider (just a suggestion) of starting off with a little easier case building project than using LC brass. It normally is very good brass, but you will spend some time figuring it out. At least it's not like building 20 Mink out of 17 Hornady Hornet brass...
As discussed, this is the path I am taking, as one never knows when a wildcat case will disappear. I have a lot of free .223 cases of different head-stamps to practice on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 410gauge View Post
"You know the free stuff given you that turns into a nightmare"...LOL! Godd luck on your decision. 410gauge
LOL, I have learnt my lesson about this.

Kindest regards,

M
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  #39  
Old 09-22-2020, 09:33 PM
mefizto mefizto is offline
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Hi JohnHenry,

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnHenry View Post
M, For some there may be an important third issue left. Which route to 20VT brass yields the best accuracy?
Indeed. That was, why I purchased Lapua based on my friend's recommendation.

As I understand it, it is a matter of brass consistency. So, after one learns how to re-form brass, and picks a single good manufacturer, should this not be sufficient?

But, this is currently a second order issue to the two I am trying to decide.

Kindest regards,

M
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  #40  
Old 09-22-2020, 10:53 PM
JohnHenry JohnHenry is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mefizto View Post
Hi JohnHenry,



Indeed. That was, why I purchased Lapua based on my friend's recommendation.

As I understand it, it is a matter of brass consistency. So, after one learns how to re-form brass, and picks a single good manufacturer, should this not be sufficient?

But, this is currently a second order issue to the two I am trying to decide.

Kindest regards,

M
Not in my opinion. For example, is LC 223 brass as dimensionally and weight/volume uniform as Lapua brass? Variation in unturned neck wall thickness is usually indicative of variations in the case body also. What yields the greater uniformity of neck grip on the bullet; an uniform relatively thin neck wall or an uniform relatively thick neck wall? I guess it all depends on what each shooters objective is; accuracy adequate to shoot high volume small varmints or to try to consistently shoot 1/4 moa groups.
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