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  #11  
Old 11-03-2006, 07:35 PM
Pappy Pappy is offline
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I have had a couple of spiral splits along the ogive during point-up, but they were impossible to miss - the handle just dropped. Also, you can get some variation in the noses if your lube isn't consistent enough. But I agree that seating is the most critical step. One thing about the effort of pulling the handle is that it is easy to overestimate how quickly you can ramp up production. My own rule of thumb says it takes at least 8 weeks to increase production by 1000 bullets/week (that's for 30s). In any week, I could do an extra 1000, but then I'd have to rest or risk some kind of shoulder or elbow injury. So far, that hasn't happened to me. At first, pulling the handle was very tiring, but that goes away if you are patient enough and don't try to rush.
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  #12  
Old 11-04-2006, 12:53 AM
jim saubier jim saubier is offline
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Default Bryan

Are you possibly the Bryan of Zia Bullets. I recall that Zia bullets in New Mexico was run by a Bryan. either way, welcome to the forum. I look forward to hearing your views and sharing your experience on bullet making.

jim
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  #13  
Old 11-04-2006, 02:33 PM
Bryan Bryan is offline
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Default Zia Bullets

Jim: I am that Bryan. I sold the bullet business to Bart Sauter last fall when my "real" job went away.
Bryan
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  #14  
Old 11-06-2006, 11:40 AM
jim saubier jim saubier is offline
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Default thought that might be you.

welcome to the forum, we look forward to having your experience here to discuss the finer arts of bullet making.
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  #15  
Old 11-07-2006, 11:56 PM
Bryan Bryan is offline
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Default Hey Jim

Randy was the one who got me into benchrest in the first place. I was making .22 bullets at the time and he was a major factor in gettin' me into the BR bullet game as well. I don't hold it against him
Glad to hear you are into the fray! I have samples of nearly everyone's bullets......grabbed a few here and there to measure and weigh and run on the Juenke.
Tell me more about your bullets and equipment!
Bryan
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  #16  
Old 11-08-2006, 12:54 PM
jim saubier jim saubier is offline
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Default .30 cal

We make .30 caliber benchrest bullets using Niemi carbide dies, 7s ogive bullets typically using 1" j4 jackets but have made some using .920" jackets as well. We don't make a lot of bullets, but supply a few local shooters who have made us look good. Our bullets have won many matches, big and small, including the big upset this year at the 200-300 yard GROUP nationals HV grand that Dean Breeden won.

We do not own a Juenke machine, but do spin our bullets on a mechanical spinner to evaluate them from lot to lot. I just don't know what the value of the Juenke machine is, I've not heard a compelling argument for one yet. Have you found yours valuable?
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  #17  
Old 11-08-2006, 11:39 PM
R.G. Robinett R.G. Robinett is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jim saubier View Post
We make .30 caliber benchrest bullets using Niemi carbide dies, 7s ogive bullets typically using 1" j4 jackets but have made some using .920" jackets as well. We don't make a lot of bullets, but supply a few local shooters who have made us look good. Our bullets have won many matches, big and small, including the big upset this year at the 200-300 yard GROUP nationals HV grand that Dean Breeden won.

We do not own a Juenke machine, but do spin our bullets on a mechanical spinner to evaluate them from lot to lot. I just don't know what the value of the Juenke machine is, I've not heard a compelling argument for one yet. Have you found yours valuable?
Jim, I do not own one of these devices either; however, many people DO "spin" my bullets on the Juenke machine: invariably, the bullets are pronounced "superb" - undoubtedly due to the most excellent concentricity of Niemi dies. I can say that the Juenke device cannot/does not measure jacket wall run-out, which is generally referred to as TIR (total indicated run-out, which, via a dial indicator & mandrel CAN be accurately measured).

I know this by virtue of having "tricked" several Juenke owners into running bullets of various KNOWN (dial indicator measured) TIR; the devices/individuals were completely unable to accurately identify the varying degrees of TIR, which ranged from 0.0001" up to 0.0008"! Several segregated samples of each weight, along with a mixed sample were provided. Based upon these "tests", I concluded that this device mesures geometry - exterior geometry. I may assume a little credit for crossing the T's and dotting the I's, but the REAL reason the bullets Juenke so uniformly, rests in the extreme concentricity between the shank and nose sections of the Niemi carbide point-up dies.

My biggest issue with the Juenke machine: there is NO known calibration standard, nor a defined unit of measure; ie., is unit equal to 1/1,000 of an inch, 1/1,0000, etc. I have used precise measuring tools for all of my working career - evey single device was ALWAYS CALIBRATED to a KNOWN STANDARD. I am not saying that this device does not measure something - just that nobody has been able to tell me [exactly] what it does measure. Again, I believe that it probably measures variations in the origin (tangent) points of the nose and BT sections relative to the shank . . . and to some extent, the external concentricity of the bullet . . . I think.

Regressing slightly, I cannot disagree that bullets are "made" with the seating of the cores, however, I would add that the cores should be washed, then washed, then, washed again! R.G.

Last edited by R.G. Robinett; 11-09-2006 at 02:11 AM.
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  #18  
Old 11-09-2006, 12:04 AM
Bryan Bryan is offline
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Default Juenke

Jim: I have to ditto what Randy said about the Juenke machine. The "1 in 14" test is the only true test, but it is interesting to note that the Juenke is zeroed to position the needle in the center of the scale.....just for ease of reading it, and that when adjusted this way, all a person has to do is hold that particular bullet in his hand for about 15 seconds and the needle will now be in a different position on the scale. Let it cool to room temp and the needle will return to the previous area. It obviously measures something, but nothing you can document with any certainty.
Bryan
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  #19  
Old 11-09-2006, 12:25 AM
jim saubier jim saubier is offline
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Default what you guys said.

these are all reasons why i've not justified buying one of these majic boxes.

so is washing cores one of hte most important steps? I don't know if it makes a difference or not, as we've always washed our cores like you suggested we should. We degrease the wire, cut the slugs, lube the slugs, squirt the cores, and rinse/wash the squirt cores using boiling water with detergent. Our cores are oxidized to a greyish white finish before being seated. do most/all benchrest bullet makers oxidize their cores?

core seating, is what we see as the most critical step. selecting and determining the appropriate punch for the particular lot of bullets, and adjusting our core weights even to that particular lot of jackets, and our set of punches. once our dies are set up for a particular lot of jackets and cores, we pretty much leave them alone.
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  #20  
Old 11-09-2006, 01:33 AM
Bryan Bryan is offline
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Default Core seating

Jim: Cores have to be lubed before squirting. We all know this. They must be cleaned of all lube prior to core seating. We also know this. But they have to be CLEAN to the max. My method was to use a carburetor dip bucket and a 5 gal bucket of laquer thinner to get the lube off the cores and dry them on clean towels in the sun. Second step was to dip them in acetone and again dry them on towels in the sun. Next, I would clean J-4 jacket buckets with acetone and have them ready for the cores. 3rd step was to etch the cores in a 5 gal bucket of water with 1/2 cup of vinegar for a total of 5 minutes then rinse the cores with a literal flood of water to stop the etching process. The end result is a rather dull looking core, as opposed to the very shiny squirted core.
That final rinse is very important to stop the etching process. If not stopped the cores will develope a chalky coating that CANNOT be removed, and will cause all kinds of problems in the core seating process.. I have had a batch that I soaked in oil, tumbled, cussed at and the chalk just came back. I made some fishing sinkers out of those. I have also used a very light solution of Simple Green in water and that does a good job of etching as well, and is easier to stop the etching process, but it does require an additional soak in acetone before the cores are ready to use.
Don't forget the mating surface for the core....the inside of the jacket!
Again, I use acetone, but I rinse the jackets in one bucket of acetone and dry on towels then rinse in another bucket (separate bucket) of acetone and dry on towels again. Then store in clean sealed buckets. Only keep the cleaned cores and jackets on hand as needed...don't store them indefinately.
This whole proceedure causes some problems. Laquer thinner and acetone are flammable, and there are numerous buckets of each involved in the process. Second, you need a lot of towels and some time at the laundromat to keep a supply of clean ones on hand. Third, don't buy Sudafed on the same day you replenish your acetone supply! Can you say "Meth Lab"?
I have been questioned about this!
Sorry to ramble on, but there are a lot of questions posed about this subject and I'm more than happy to help where I can.
Bryan
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