Rifle to rifle differences in load data a cause for caution.

[montdoug]

Trusting posts on web sites for loading data is like running through the trees with your eyes closed, sooner or later something bad is gonna happen .
Even on this site, or maybe especially on this site some are pretty convincing when passing out unsafe data. The only thing that interests me in loading data is what is the starting point, I'll take er from there thanks .

[sicero]

Amen Dude\\

Message too short.

[GLWenzl]

Originally Posted by montdoug

The only thing that interests me in loading data is what is the starting point, I'll take er from there thanks .

Probably should use caution at that especially working with smaller case capacities.

I've been Lucky and did most of my stuff without anyone's loads or advice because there was none with the powders I wanted to use.

[Bayou City Boy]

Originally Posted by GLWenzl

Probably should use caution at that especially working with smaller case capacities.

I've been Lucky and did most of my stuff without anyone's loads or advice because there was none with the powders I wanted to use.

But knowing you as I do, Gary, I know that you used some common sense and did some sound research before plunging forward.

What you see and read today by these new "internet experts" is an approach that is going to get someone seriously hurt. The idea that brass can be formed in a certain manner and it becomes magical with new found strength capable of hyper velocity in a good rifle action is pure lunacy. I'm sorry if that sounds harsh but I don't know of any other way to say it. Brass is brass and it has been the same for years. And it is the weak link in the entire equation. When it fails, everything else fails too.

SAAMI pressure standards are applied to brass and not to rifles. If the brass gives way due to excessive heat and/or pressure, it won't matter if you're shooting a $100 surplus military action or a $2K custom action. There will still be lots of startling things happening just in front of your face, none of which will be pleasant.

I told myself I wasn't going to post, but I'd feel very bad if someone unsuspectingly got hurt because he went down the road a few folks are blissfully traveling today with their delusions about what they are personally capable of doing that will revolutionize the world. Coming back down to earth after an unplanned for boom might be a startling revolution in itself.

Again I just hope the first person to get hurt is not an innocent person who took someone else's stupidity to faith because he read it on the internet.

-BCB

[DJTJR]

Yup the worst is getting load data from people who live at altitude when you live at sea level. Big change

[stephen perry 1]

Same as on all reloading Forums. Lots of reloaders learn reloading on what they learn on Forums. Can't fault them they want to learn. On Small Caliber where allot of case forming goes on maybe someone should write a Thread on how to reduce say a .20 down to a .17 without destroying brass.

It's too easy for experienced loaders to ignore a new guy asking a simple question. If the new guy gets help when he asks for it he'll probably help another new guy somewhere down the line.

I agree with you and appreciate that high pressure loads should not be passed on in computer reloading.

Stephen Perry

[montdoug]

I just re-looked at this thread and thought I'd add something for what it's worth.

Because I agree that a lot of new reloaders, especially on the small caliber non-published wildcat rounds use the internet as a source of information I'd like to take it a step farther.
I believe we owe it to all those guys as well as our sport in general to "POLITELY ", point out things posted that are patently unsafe or at least would be in our own rifle! That's why I originally started this thread, to point out that we "ARE NOT" making cookies here and just because one rifle held up to a number of way over pressure rounds without blowing up it doesn't mean the next guys rifle will do the same !! Any combination of components that achieves one thing in one rifle, even if it is safe in that rifle will not necessarily be the same in another. Further, if someone is telling you it is with anything but a starting load I'd scratch em off my "listen to list".

Once again I sound like the social avenger but as Foxhunter once said so correctly, "These small calibers can go from "Oh My ", to "Oh My GOD ", in one or two tenths of a grain of powder.

This came up for me a day or two back when a very experienced reloader, older guy buddy a mine that got into the small calibers because of me, calls me. He tells me he has the .17 MachIV Greg Tannel made for him pushing 25 grain V-Max's at 4,100FPS + with a load he actually worked up to on advice off a new internet buddy and it's driving tacks! When I looked at the load data I've saved on my MachIV I see clearly that that load, with my lot of powder, in my rifle, "would be catastrophic"!!!
I'd sure hate like heck to be responsible for getting someone hurt.
Shoot safe guys!!

[Bill K]

Originally Posted by Alex

..., according to Dan Pickett, the most dangerous caliber Cooper chambers for.

I'd have to try to steer they away from the 17Sq, to the 17AH. You can still screw up, but it's a little more difficult. I learned to reload on a 22H, and had a ball doing it.

I concur completely with your sentiments, but think that for a new reloader, the 22H and then a 17AH would be the way to go.

Alex

I know, my 17 HH, started showing pressure signs faster than any cartridge I have ever loaded for. Just 1/10th of a grain makes a difference faster than any other cartridge I have or load for. So we really need to be careful with those tiny rounds. Bill K

[Bayou City Boy]

It seems that with recent revelations here that this thread once again has significant relevance.

As I've said before:

1. More than one reloader has seen no "obvious signs" of extreme pressure, sometimes for years, and then one day he sees and feels some "obvious signs" for "no obvious reason" that hopefully has him feeling Papal blessings that he still has eyes, fingers and even toes.

And after the prayers and blessings, he's amazed at the condition - or lack thereof - of his favorite rifle. Again, for "no obvious" reason.

2. The brass cartridge case is always the weak link in this equation of what is safe and what isn't. And for the record, there is no magical brass, military or civilian design, that won't catastrophically fail if enough heat and pressure are applied.

Some of the internet loads that are being passed around with vigor I bet would cause wet diapers if they could be fired in a test barrel with the capability of measuring actual breech pressures on a cartridge case with a strain gauge. It is never the action that fails first. It is the inability of the action to contain the suddenly released pressure resulting from failure of the cartridge case that make junk of both.

With small cartridges, the possibility of failure is probably greater than with larger cartridges holding a lot more powder. Excessive pressure is still excessive pressure no matter how small the cartridge case might be.

I've said this before, and I'll say it again. I hope that NO ONE ever gets hurt from a reloading accident. But if it happens because of an internet recipe touted to be safe, I hope it's not an innocent drinker of the Kool-Aid (read that as meaning a new reloader) that gets hurt.

I've never experienced a reloading failure on my own, but I've seen the results of a couple. The one that came out the best involved nothing more than a very good rifle being completely destroyed and clean underwear. The worst one involved requiring that small pieces of brass and metal be removed from a face, neck, and upper chest that looked like they had been peppered with rock salt from 50 feet. By the Grace of God and shooting glasses, both eyes were spared, but the most significant human damage was to an arm that had a fairly significant chunk of what was once a rifle action imbedded in it against the bone. Both incidents caused me to almost wet my diapers due to the loud boom, and I was not along side either person, which by definition, becomes a blast sight when the loud booms happened.

Be safe at what we enjoy and don't believe everything you read on the internet. For a new reloading fan, buying a good reloading manual and reading it is far cheaper than a doctor visit/s and having to replace your favorite rifle. And it's much cheaper in a bunch of ways than playing Russian Roulette with borrowed free internet advice is coming from someone who has been lucky so far.

JMO - BCB

[x32030]

I second the motion Bill K. The .17 HH with Lil-gun for sure! AA-2200 seems more forgiving in pressure issues. I can't use more than 9.7 of Lil-gun in the summer months.