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  #11  
Old 11-14-2017, 10:49 PM
Nor Cal Mikie Nor Cal Mikie is offline
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I've been dealing with brass issues on the 17 VHA so that's my reasoning on staying away unless you have LOTS of experience. No use testing your patience if you don't have to. I have had better luck with different brass and dies so the round can be made if you have the proper gear.

As far as "better brass" on the TCM, factory brass looks like a short version of a .223. LOTS of brass to work with when it comes to necking down or neck turning. Not thin like some I've seen. And with around 10+ grains of powder, not much barrel heating.
The VHA will take a different size bolt head. I do Savage so I had a couple of them made up special by PT&G.
If you've been around Wildcats a while, the VHA might be something to play with. Start with good brass and dies and you might be able to turn out good rounds. You'll never know till you try.
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  #12  
Old 11-15-2017, 12:25 AM
georgeld georgeld is offline
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Steve:

Once I had some instructions from foxhunter and his Bulberry die.
Necking down the 5.7 cases was a one shot deal and went slick w/o problems.
Until I got that, I had a hassle, mostly not having any experience with such
things before. All my guns before this were factory and smallest was .223.

I seldom have even had rim pull off problems with 5.7's for the VR. When I first got into it, RCBS was the only one that made shell holders and none for the hand priming tool. Bob said to cut the base ring off one. Since I have a lathe and carbide tooling that was no big deal and went quick. I cut two off in case I misplaced one.

I've loaded around 3000 maybe 3500 of them, fired maybe 200 in all between the two rifles. Mostly due to health issues keeping me from from going.

I do have just less than a 1000 4.6 cases, they were annealed and decapped. So far the only thing I've done with them is run 'em thru the shaker a couple hours to polish them up.

Recently there was discussion on finding shell holders that fit the 4.6 cases. I don't know yet whether mine will or not. Depends on whether the rim is thicker, or larger dia. IF thicker, I'm SOL, if just a touch larger dia. IF I decide to use them, I can turn them down a touch fairly easy. At this point I don't have a clue how they'll fit. They do look a lot closer to 17 size than the 5.7's. But, no bigger deal than those are, I can't see any difference IF they'll fit my shell holders.

I get an easy 3460fps with 9.5gr 1680 and they're fairly quiet compared to .223.

You'll find the longer ranges will be harder to hit with in winds no matter what caliber you try.

IT's all in how much you enjoy these challenges. IF petty stuff upsets you, just stick with factory all the way. Sounds like you've got a whole lot more experience with these things than most of us had when we started.

Have fun, Stay safe most of all! Main thing to keep in mind. Just .1 gr of powder in these tiny cases can JUMP from plumb safe to blow the gun up as I learned the hardway. The smaller the case, the more touchy things get. Remember that!
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Last edited by georgeld; 11-15-2017 at 12:29 AM.
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  #13  
Old 11-15-2017, 12:28 AM
steve123 steve123 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nor Cal Mikie View Post
I've been dealing with brass issues on the 17 VHA so that's my reasoning on staying away unless you have LOTS of experience. No use testing your patience if you don't have to. I have had better luck with different brass and dies so the round can be made if you have the proper gear.

As far as "better brass" on the TCM, factory brass looks like a short version of a .223. LOTS of brass to work with when it comes to necking down or neck turning. Not thin like some I've seen. And with around 10+ grains of powder, not much barrel heating.
The VHA will take a different size bolt head. I do Savage so I had a couple of them made up special by PT&G.
If you've been around Wildcats a while, the VHA might be something to play with. Start with good brass and dies and you might be able to turn out good rounds. You'll never know till you try.
Thanks a bunch for the insight!

I should take your advice and leave well enough alone on the VHA, same with the 17 Vrap.

It's been years since I've thought about these small cartridges. I remembered the 19's. 19 Badger would be a cool one. A turn key system like I want, now just need some encouragement from guys that have one.

17 HH, how's brass life, barrel life and which is the better brand of brass?
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  #14  
Old 11-15-2017, 12:49 AM
steve123 steve123 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by georgeld View Post
Steve:

Once I had some instructions from foxhunter and his Bulberry die.
Necking down the 5.7 cases was a one shot deal and went slick w/o problems.
Until I got that, I had a hassle, mostly not having any experience with such
things before. All my guns before this were factory and smallest was .223.

I seldom have even had rim pull off problems with 5.7's for the VR. When I first got into it, RCBS was the only one that made shell holders and none for the hand priming tool. Bob said to cut the base ring off one. Since I have a lathe and carbide tooling that was no big deal and went quick. I cut two off in case I misplaced one.

I've loaded around 3000 maybe 3500 of them, fired maybe 200 in all between the two rifles. Mostly due to health issues keeping me from from going.

I do have just less than a 1000 4.6 cases, they were annealed and decapped. So far the only thing I've done with them is run 'em thru the shaker a couple hours to polish them up.

Recently there was discussion on finding shell holders that fit the 4.6 cases. I don't know yet whether mine will or not. Depends on whether the rim is thicker, or larger dia. IF thicker, I'm SOL, if just a touch larger dia. IF I decide to use them, I can turn them down a touch fairly easy. At this point I don't have a clue how they'll fit. They do look a lot closer to 17 size than the 5.7's. But, no bigger deal than those are, I can't see any difference IF they'll fit my shell holders.

I get an easy 3460fps with 9.5gr 1680 and they're fairly quiet compared to .223.

You'll find the longer ranges will be harder to hit with in winds no matter what caliber you try.

IT's all in how much you enjoy these challenges. IF petty stuff upsets you, just stick with factory all the way. Sounds like you've got a whole lot more experience with these things than most of us had when we started.

Have fun, Stay safe most of all! Main thing to keep in mind. Just .1 gr of powder in these tiny cases can JUMP from plumb safe to blow the gun up as I learned the hardway. The smaller the case, the more touchy things get. Remember that!
George, I think you were writing this post as I was writing mine to Mikie.

I got to thinking, I wonder how 4.6x30 does as is? Seems like someone would make good bullets for it???

Pondering all the attributes and downsides of each still.... Looks like the easy answer is 17HH or 221 fireball.
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  #15  
Old 11-15-2017, 12:59 AM
Swift220 Swift220 is offline
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Easy, 221 Fireball pushed to the max.

Jim D
SE Texas
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  #16  
Old 11-15-2017, 03:25 AM
hemiallen hemiallen is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steve123 View Post
Thanks Bill,

I didn't realize 17HH heated a barrel that fast. Frequent cleaning too? I'm learning from you guys.

20 Vartarg doesn't heat a barrel as fast as the 17HH, or about the same?

Anybody try the 55gr Bergers in the 20 VT?

221 fireball isn't looking to bad after all.

From my experience the weight of the powder charge is what creates heat, regardless of the diameter of the bullet. A hornet case is going to allow more shots before reaching heat levels where one should swap out to another rifle, but I suspect most shooters don't approach that quantity of shooting besides RIO, myself and. Few other lucky skippy colony shooters. Most don't get 100+ shots before noon, lol. I might be wrong there, but fast skippy action is not easy to come by, and my fields are getting poisoned hard.

So for me, a vartarg/ 221 will heat much faster, but my 20vt shire hits skippy much harder, and is flatter shooting than my 17hh
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  #17  
Old 11-15-2017, 03:39 AM
Rocklong Rocklong is offline
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I havenít shot any of the wildcats but Iíve had two .17 Remingtonís and both shot around 1/2 Moa. One was a factory 9 twist rem and the other a cooper with a 10 twist both shot 25 gr hp very well. The Cooper shot a little better than the rem. If you are in the market for a cooper model 51 Phoenix I have the one I am talking about for sale in the classifieds I was gonna rebarrel to a Lilja 9 twist but went a different direction and am selling the barrel and cooper. Good luck with your searching there are a lot of options out there.
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  #18  
Old 11-15-2017, 03:55 AM
Nor Cal Mikie Nor Cal Mikie is offline
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I had just sent a note to Bill K about a 4.6X30MM case I just necked up to 20 caliber. EASY transition and it looks real good too.
You'll need to build a dummy round for specs, ship it off and have a reamer cut, then invest in a 20 caliber barrel to be chambered. Just a matter of investing more money. Makes going with a factory round like the .221 Fireball look better all the time.

Going to the 20 VT is pretty easy. You'll need a reamer to cut a chamber in your chosen barrel. Then you'll need dies. Brass is pretty easy to come by. I just take my fired fireball brass, neck it down to 20 in the VT die and it's good to go. And as mentioned, when you drop down in caliber, pressures jump up REAL FAST!! So you end up starting all over again. More to learn.
Once you have to beat your bolt open on an over pressured case, you just learned the hard way. Better than having to replace your gun or seek medical attention.
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  #19  
Old 11-15-2017, 05:35 AM
william t. oviatt william t. oviatt is offline
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i promise, Allen....

In comparing same cartridge and increasing bullet size, say in a 17 Hornet and neck it up, each stage up through the 270 REN (full open case), the temperature will decrease for the same powder charge (and similar barreled action). There is a huge difference in a 17 HH and a 6mm Hornet or a 17 Fireball and a 6mmx221, or 19 Badger and a 30 Carbine. It's a function of pressure/volume/surface area in the different diameters.

Bill
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  #20  
Old 11-15-2017, 06:32 AM
RareBear RareBear is offline
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If you are interested in a wildcat cartridge, a board sponsor Garin SureStrike System, might have a turn-key solution for you in the 17 Garin.

http://www.surestrikesystem.com/

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Last edited by RareBear; 11-15-2017 at 06:14 PM.
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