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  #1  
Old 10-26-2019, 07:24 PM
georgeld georgeld is offline
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Default PacNor fire: Preventable?

This likely may irritate some of you guys.
Just follow me thru it though.

I've tinkered and "tingled" with electricity quite a bit close to 50 years.
Sure am not an electrician but, I know my way around it fairly well.
I'd bet there's "wiremen" on this board too. Speak up if you are.
Correct me if I need to be.
I've wired up half dozen houses, barns, and full service installs several times.

Whoever was working on that lathe: Should have shut the breaker/s off to it,
then locked it out, hung a sign, then tested it at the switch to make sure it was dead circuit
before he pulled the conduit apart.
It sure don't sound like these Safety Precautions were done.
IF they had been, this could have been prevented, or delayed awhile at least.

I say: Delayed, as: "fire blew out the wall" ??
That sounds like a major short was developing elsewhere and just needed a little more heat to fire up.
It does sound like they knew there could be a major fire and everyone was trained for it.
That's good news no one got burned or killed. Everyone got 'hurt' though, Jobs, etc.
Things will be rough for all of them for quite awhile.

I worked in a huge machine shop in the '60's. 20+ lathes, 12 mills, dozen three drill tables,
more departments than I ever knew. Heat treating, foundry, upholstery, stamping machines,
sheet metal, painting etc.
Re: Aircraft Mechanics, Co/Spgs.

EVERY machine had it's own breaker next to it, plus the switch to run it with.
I'd bet Pac Nor wasn't set up that way. Why not, if not?
IF it was, why wasn't the power shut off??????
Regardless: "WHY WASN'T THE POWER SHUT OFF???"

When just starting my working life I worked in a bread bakery.
Over head was a big metal channel box about 6"x10" full of wires.
One day it shorted out in the long main run of that box.
Blew sparks and hot metal all over us and the room for 20 feet.
A 6" hole was burned/blown out the side of it.
That either burned a fuse or kicked a breaker and shut it down. Nothing else was hurt or burned.

I said "tingled" too. In '75 for extra money I played monkey and trimmed tree's with a small chainsaw.
Cut a branch and let it fall on the main wire down the alley.
How I kept from falling 30' to the ground and or being cooked I have no clue.
A couple months later still dragging around I asked a lineman: "how much juice is in that top wire?"
"hmm, about 45,000v, why?" "I held a branch and let it fall on that thing"
"you're a mighty lucky son of a b---" "I sure don't feel lucky the way my ribs and elbows feel yet".
It was all of four months before I could catch a full breath.

Main thing I've learned about hot wires is; Don't ever get between the ground and the hot wire!!
Do it right and you can handle the big stuff in hot wires as long as you don't get grounded too.

Just a few of the things I've seen in life.
Hope it makes sense and keeps you folks from getting hurt.
Open to discussion.
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"Gun Control is NOT about guns,
it's about CONTROL!!"

Last edited by georgeld; 10-26-2019 at 07:45 PM. Reason: sorting things
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  #2  
Old 10-26-2019, 09:47 PM
L Rivard L Rivard is offline
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Default Pac Nor fire

If the situation is indeed as presented there is little need for discussion. Sounds like an violation of OSHA regulations.
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  #3  
Old 10-27-2019, 11:21 AM
The Old Redneck The Old Redneck is offline
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Default Breaker at machine

Breaker at machine does not cut off power between that breaker and main panel, just to that machine. Speculation as to why fire started, wires shorted in conduit etc is just that. The building could have been wired per code and insulation on wires broke down over the years. It may not have been a circuit to that machine. Speculation without full knowledge of situation is just guessing. We have rewired buildings where insulation on wires had become brittle over time and and wires shorted. Building was wired per code, fault was insulation breaking down. I would not try to speculate what happened or how. Machine being down and apart it was not drawing any current so I would look at something other than machine. Definitely wouldn't blame anyone or anything based on speculation. We lost a dairy years ago. Was first blamed on electrical short. Later found out from different source that wasn't electrical

Last edited by The Old Redneck; 10-27-2019 at 11:25 AM. Reason: Fix what auto spell check fixed
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Old 10-27-2019, 12:33 PM
Eddie Harren Eddie Harren is offline
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Default Preventable

Hindsight= 20-20

Foresight= Not So Much
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  #5  
Old 10-27-2019, 01:20 PM
hunter67wa hunter67wa is offline
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Default

Having worked in Fire Investigation Cause and Origin. It is rare to have an electrical fire starting the fire it is usually secondary to something else.
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  #6  
Old 10-28-2019, 04:11 AM
georgeld georgeld is offline
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Default

Read the fire report: Working taking conduit loose at the machine
created sparks. Right away "fire blew out of the wall".

Didn't say where, all very near the same time.

Lots of reason for a short in a wall, or conduit etc.

Insulation is just one of many.

Thank you for the input.
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it's about CONTROL!!"
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  #7  
Old 10-28-2019, 12:57 PM
L.Sherm L.Sherm is offline
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Default

Woulda, Coulda, Shoulda is not gonna change what happened. Doesnt need to be debated on a public forum.
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  #8  
Old 10-28-2019, 01:40 PM
redrock ranger redrock ranger is offline
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Default Pac Nor

Quote:
Originally Posted by georgeld View Post
Read the fire report: Working taking conduit loose at the machine
created sparks. Right away "fire blew out of the wall".

Didn't say where, all very near the same time.

Lots of reason for a short in a wall, or conduit etc.

Insulation is just one of many.

Thank you for the input.
Accidents happen when someone is tinkering. Get a pro.
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  #9  
Old 10-28-2019, 02:09 PM
moorepower moorepower is offline
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Old Redneck View Post
Breaker at machine does not cut off power between that breaker and main panel, just to that machine. Speculation as to why fire started, wires shorted in conduit etc is just that. The building could have been wired per code and insulation on wires broke down over the years. It may not have been a circuit to that machine. Speculation without full knowledge of situation is just guessing. We have rewired buildings where insulation on wires had become brittle over time and and wires shorted. Building was wired per code, fault was insulation breaking down. I would not try to speculate what happened or how. Machine being down and apart it was not drawing any current so I would look at something other than machine. Definitely wouldn't blame anyone or anything based on speculation. We lost a dairy years ago. Was first blamed on electrical short. Later found out from different source that wasn't electrical
Exactly! until the fire marshal's report comes out, it is all no more than speculation/beating a dead horse. I have a hard time of 100% believing a lack of "news" report. Very Very few injuries, accidents are not preventable in reality, but I was not there so I surely don't know about this one. On the other hand the news seems to get less facts right than a second rate weatherman.
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  #10  
Old 10-28-2019, 02:19 PM
moorepower moorepower is offline
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by L Rivard View Post
If the situation is indeed as presented there is little need for discussion. Sounds like an violation of OSHA regulations.
If you have ever worked around OSHA or owned a business that has had OSHA walk in the door, you probably know that everything can is an OSHA violation. I got a $5k fine for EMPTY boxes on top of an office, because it was not load rated by an engineer and had no railing around the edge.and it was not the minimum height above to the ceiling for storage. Did you know that if you have a business with one employee that you are subject to OSHA, even if you are the one employee? I could go on and on about OSHA BS for hours.
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