Saubier.com  



Go Back   Saubier.com > Saubier.com Forums > Small Caliber Discussion Board

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 01-08-2019, 04:23 PM
Screaminweasil Screaminweasil is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Sage Country
Posts: 1,045
Default Remington 6.5 vs 7.5 Primers (from the horses mouth)

Short story.........


Recently I acquired a Browning 1885 in 22 hornet. Using my standard loads of 13.4gr Lil Gun, R-P Cases, CCI 500 (small pistol) primers, and 40 gr bullets I experienced some "primer blanking" or slight shearing of the primer, due to "primer flow in the firing pin hole." Primer flow back into the firing pin hole gets sheared off by the breach block when the action is re-opened after firing.








Well, having shot a 17-222 in a T/C contender for years, I knew that with some single shot rifles, this can be more prevalent than bolt guns for various reasons. Switching from Federal 205 to R/P 7.5 primers in the contender, "cured the problem" without the expense of "bushing the firing pin".


So, knowing the R-P 7.5 Primers have a "thicker cup", and having several thousand on hand, I swapped them for the CCI 500's in my 22 hornet loads for the 1885 Low Wall hornet. Accuracy was IDENTICAL, but without any primer flow whatsoever. I've reloaded these cases 4 times now and primers are still super tight, no stretching or any pressure signs evident. I know this load is not high pressure, even in this 1885.



A little background..........I've been using CCI 500 small pistol primers with this same lot of lil gun powder for thousands of rounds in a browning A bolt 22 hornet. I also use the CCI 500 primer with max loads of AA 1680 in my Ruger 77/22K hornet and CZ 527 K Hornet, without any issues.



So, point is, I know it's a result of the characteristics of the 1885 rifle(Not high pressure signs) that is causing this. I also chrono'd this load through the Browning 1885 Hornet at 3,090 FPS in 40degree weather, with both CCI and R/P 7.5 primers, as another insurance pressure wasn't the cause of this primer phenomenon.

A quick google search revealed i'm not alone in experiencing this with a browning 1885 low wall. Switching to R/P 7.5 primers has "cured" the problem, and accuracy is stellar.





Picture of Remington 7.5 Primers as substitute for CCI 500 small pistol.




Knowing that Remington makes a 6.5 primer, which many vow to be "the hornet primer", I emailed Remington to see what the difference between the 6.5 and 7.5 primers were. I specifically told them my experience in the Browning 1885 hornet and asked if there was any difference other than primer cup thickness between their two small rifle primers. Specifically, I asked if the power level or ignition between the two primers was different in any way, shape, or form.


Here is there answer.............."
The only difference is the primer cup thickness, and this is for higher pressure rounds the
compound is the same.

Thank you and best regards,
Remington Customer Services"


I hope this helps anyone who experiences this with a "single shot hornet" rifle. Don't be afraid to switch to Remington 7.5 primers, afterall Remington claims they are the same as the 6.5 Hornet primer, just with a thicker cup............


UPDATE : My own testing seems to suggest that the remington rep who responded to me is FULL OF IT>>

In any event, the 7.5 primer worked well for me in the 1885 hornet, but it is a VERY HOT PRIMER.

Last edited by Screaminweasil; 01-09-2019 at 12:53 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 01-08-2019, 04:55 PM
Tim Anderson Tim Anderson is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Minn.
Posts: 661
Default

Yep they will work but so will the 6 1/2, had same issue with mine but chambered in 17-221. As for the source it depends on who you ask. What I have found is the 7 1/2 is a hotter primer and will get the bullet moving/jump sooner than the 6 1/2 which can and will affect your groups as the bullet is jumping before powder is ignited.. If I may ask if according to the source primers are same cept for thickness then why even bother with one over the other.. some food for thought..
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 01-08-2019, 05:07 PM
Screaminweasil Screaminweasil is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Sage Country
Posts: 1,045
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Anderson View Post
Yep they will work but so will the 6 1/2, had same issue with mine but chambered in 17-221. As for the source it depends on who you ask. What I have found is the 7 1/2 is a hotter primer and will get the bullet moving/jump sooner than the 6 1/2 which can and will affect your groups as the bullet is jumping before powder is ignited.. If I may ask if according to the source primers are same cept for thickness then why even bother with one over the other.. some food for thought..



I have no idea why Remington does a lot of things? They aren't exactly the model of "good business" practices.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 01-08-2019, 05:36 PM
Rick in Oregon Rick in Oregon is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: High Desert of Central Oregon
Posts: 1,345
Default

During the time Precision Shooting magazine was being published, they had a feature length article on primers. From much experimenting in dark conditions where the primer flame could be clearly seen from each brand and type, it was proven that the Rem 7-1/2 was indeed a hotter primer than the 6-1/2 by virtue of flame length and intensity, and was and always has been considered a "magnum primer" and ideally suited to the 223 case with harder to ignite ball powders.

The primer flame was more intense and lasted for a millisecond longer than the milder 6-1/2. Many primers were tested, but as I use the Remington's more than the other brands, it was of particular interest to me.

The theory of the bullet moving prior to complete powder ignition was also verified if not properly crimped somehow.

No dog in this fight, but if you can locate that article, it will clear up a lot of speculation.
__________________
Rick in Oregon - The East Side, where common sense still prevails.
NRA Life, OHA, VHA, Vietnam Veterans of America

Last edited by Rick in Oregon; 01-08-2019 at 05:48 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 01-08-2019, 05:47 PM
Screaminweasil Screaminweasil is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Sage Country
Posts: 1,045
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick in Oregon View Post
During the time Precision Shooting magazine was being published, they had a feature length article on primers. From much experimenting in dark conditions, it was proven that the Rem 7-1/2 was indeed a hotter primer than the 6-1/2, and was and always has been considered a "magnum primer".

The primer flame was more intense and lasted for a millisecond longer than the milder 6-1/2. Many primers were tested, but as I use the Remington's more than the other brands, it was of particular interest to me.

The theory of the bullet moving prior to complete powder ignition was also verified if not properly crimped somehow.

No dog in this fight, but if you can locate that article, it will clear up a lot of speculation.



Thanks Rick.
I don't have any 6.5's around to try. I did however, in my initial testing with this Browning, which isn't much yet, see ZERO degradation in accuracy by switching to the Rem 7.5 (hotter or not) vs CCI 500 small pistol primers.
Remingtons response is certainly an interesting one, one in which is contradictory to some others testing.
I googled the difference between 6.5 and 7.5 and found another fellow or two that had emailed Remington years back and got the same response as I, that they are the same sans cup thickness.


Rick, did/do you experience any primer flow with your K hornet 1885??
I know your using AA1680 and not lil gun, but was curious as you do use Remington 6.5 primers.
I'm not going to complain about the accuracy with Rem 7.5's.............I have to think if I switched to 6.5's with my particular load in my particular 1885 Browning 22 hornet, the primer flow/shearing problem would return, but maybe not.


The cup thickness of the Remington 6.5 is .020" vs the .017" thickness of the CCI 500 primers vs the .025" Thickness of the Remington 7.5, so maybe the 6.5's would work in my Browning without issue.
I think I'll round up a box of Rem 6.5's and do my own testing. Rem 7.5 vs Rem 6.5 with my Lil Gun load in my 1885 Hornet, Chrony Test, Accuracy Test, and primer flow/shearing test. I'll have to wait for a bit warmer/less windy weather though

Last edited by Screaminweasil; 01-08-2019 at 07:01 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 01-08-2019, 05:59 PM
TinMan TinMan is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,800
Default

Just an FYI. In 2001, I bought a new Cooper M38 in 22 Hornet. The first time I shot it, the primers pierced, pitting the bolt face. My normal hornet loads in my No.3 and Kimber M82 had been using W296 with WSR, but switched to the Rem 6.5 to try them. I haven't used Rem 6.5 for anything else since then. The same load of W296 with WSR did not pierce the primers in the Cooper.

Last edited by TinMan; 01-08-2019 at 06:10 PM. Reason: added info
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 01-08-2019, 06:24 PM
Screaminweasil Screaminweasil is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Sage Country
Posts: 1,045
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TinMan View Post
Just an FYI. In 2001, I bought a new Cooper M38 in 22 Hornet. The first time I shot it, the primers pierced, pitting the bolt face. My normal hornet loads in my No.3 and Kimber M82 had been using W296 with WSR, but switched to the Rem 6.5 to try them. I haven't used Rem 6.5 for anything else since then. The same load of W296 with WSR did not pierce the primers in the Cooper.



With Accuracy that I'm getting with the thicker cup rem 7.5's, and having over 5,000 on hand, I may just scratch the 6.5 "trial".

I really have no need to improve upon the load I have as is. So, maybe I'll just stick to the 7.5's as the only reason for switching to them was to stop the primer flow in the 1885.

I'm not using any sort of crimp either, only getting .001 neck tension with a lee factory collet neck die as well.
I wonder how much DATA is actually out there on the "primer pushing bullet out before ignition".........seems a little "tin foil hattish" to me. How is that measured, other than theory? High SD's? Poor accuracy?



In my chrono testing out of this 1885 Hornet with 13.4 gr Lil Gun using SAME EVERYTHING...........except comparing primers. The CCI 500 (one of mildest around) actually gave a higher SD of 40 FPS vs the Remington 7.5 primer at SD of 20. Velocity was "identical" essentially, with no notable difference between the two loads. In fact the SD difference was likely as much a circumstance of a smattering of other factors vs primers. Testing was only with 10 rounds loaded with each primer, so not exactly a large data pool.
If the theory of bullet being launched before full primer ignition was anything other than "tinfoil hattish", I'd suspect the deviation and accuracy to be worse with the "hotter remington 7.5". But, maybe it's a factor of using 'lil Gun powder. Who knows for sure. Or, just maybe REMINGTON knows that their 6.5 and 7.5 primers have the same compound which would indeed make them very "mild", that is afterall what they told me today.
The packaging on my 7.5 primers says "benchrest primer", nothing indicating magnum.


John Barsness also tested primers in his Ruger #1 with Lil Gun powder and found the HOTTEST CCI 450 gave him the best accuracy........go figure.

I just find the conflicting information on "hotness" between the two small rifle primers offered by Remington to be interesting.

Also a footnote, I use CCI 500 small pistol primers in all other hornets (bolt actions). Never had a primer flatten or even show a slight hint of pressure. Accuracy has also been steller and I've found no need to change. Except for when I started shooting the 1885 Browning hornet. Rem 7.5's seem to work well in that for me.

Last edited by Screaminweasil; 01-08-2019 at 07:04 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 01-08-2019, 07:16 PM
Tim Anderson Tim Anderson is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Minn.
Posts: 661
Default

If you got an old 17 cal. laying around find out for yourself. Just resize case with primer only and a bullet, see how far bullet moves up into the barrel from just the pressure of the primer. stick a steel rod into the barrel and take measurement then knock the bullet out and repeat with a different primer. it will open your eyes..
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 01-08-2019, 07:56 PM
Screaminweasil Screaminweasil is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Sage Country
Posts: 1,045
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Anderson View Post
If you got an old 17 cal. laying around find out for yourself. Just resize case with primer only and a bullet, see how far bullet moves up into the barrel from just the pressure of the primer. stick a steel rod into the barrel and take measurement then knock the bullet out and repeat with a different primer. it will open your eyes..

No thanks.........Accuracy and SD with powder in rounds is what actually matters to me.


It's obvious that different primers have more "strength" than others. I don't need to perform a primer only test to convince me of that. What I'm not convinced of is primers pushing bullets out of case necks before powder ignition, or "complete ignition". Guess I don't really care, either way, as long as accuracy and velocity standard deviations are what I consider acceptable.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 01-08-2019, 08:48 PM
Rick in Oregon Rick in Oregon is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: High Desert of Central Oregon
Posts: 1,345
Default Primer & Bullet Movement

One of the staff writers for Varmint Hunter Magazine, Mic McPhearson (sp?) did an extensive article on the bullet movement/primer/crimp issue in VHM. Mic is a wealth of knowledge in general, PhD and all (Geology), and did many in-depth pieces on advanced handloading and both interior and exterior ballistics. He's also a Hornet aficionado.

If you have access to the magazine with this article, the results may surprise you.
__________________
Rick in Oregon - The East Side, where common sense still prevails.
NRA Life, OHA, VHA, Vietnam Veterans of America
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 08:32 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.