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Old 10-04-2006, 01:21 AM
Gary in Illinois Gary in Illinois is offline
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Default Beginning bullet swaging

If a guy wanted to learn how to swage bullets (.204 or smaller), where should he start?

I have been doing some reading on Corbin's web site but would like to see just what the process includes.

I have some experience in casting and reloading but know next to nothing about the swaging process.

Is there anyone near central Illinois who swages bullets and would be willing to show a novice what is involved?

Thanks,
Gary
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  #2  
Old 10-04-2006, 07:12 PM
Pappy Pappy is offline
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Gary,

I'm a long way from Illinois, but your post is exactly why we started this forum. I intend to take some digital pix of my setup and discuss the steps involved.

The main reason for you to contact a bullet-maker before you begin is to make sure you have the temperament for the process. Some people can't imagine spending several hours at a time on these processes; others (like me) love it.

Also, making bullets for benchrest is a bit different than making hunting bullets, mainly because BR shooters routinely eliminate other sources of error, leaving the bullet to take the blame for a miss. That's a challenge.
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Old 10-04-2006, 07:14 PM
Daryl Daryl is offline
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Gary, for the small diameter bullets, a normal heavy duty reloading press will work, with the appropriate dies, of course.
: Perhaps the easiest way to swage .204's is to start with .224's. I used a rockchucker to swage .375's down to .358 and ended up with the prettiest .358, 270 gr. spitzers you could imagine. The 300 gr. round noses looked like ink markers. Both shot well under 1" from the .358 Norma mag. so the accuracy wasn't harmed. I suspect pressure within the lead bullet swaging dies was quite high, though. There are dies meant for making .224's etc on loading presses - why not .204's?
: On the other hand, perhaps some of our wealthy friends here will suggest you get the whole she-bang- thousands of denaro and do it right.
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  #4  
Old 10-06-2006, 10:36 AM
gunhaus gunhaus is offline
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While Daryl is right in that the Reloading press can be put to work swageing the small cal bullets, I don't think the cost savings merit it. The difference in cost between reloading press dies and dies for the Corbin swage press is not great. But, the difference in both ease of production, and precision are.
A basic set up would include; A 3 die set for open tip bullets(Core swage-core seat-point form) , a core cutter, lube, lead wire, jackets, and a press. Your current reloading scale will do for weighing duty. The only major difference between the reloading press set up and the swageing tool set up is the one time cost of the press (Which can serve extra duty as a heavy duty reloading press as well)
My first foray into bullet swageing was with a Corbin "Free Bullet" set up, for making 22 caliber bullets on the reloading press from fired rimfire jackets. It was fun, but also difficult and frustrating, and nearly drove us away from the hobby. Eventually we set up dedicated swage tools, and it really made a difference! -John
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Old 10-06-2006, 02:06 PM
Bayou City Boy Bayou City Boy is offline
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Default IMO, John is totally right......

I agree with John totally.

You can definitely get by with a reloading press for bullet swaging, but it does not make the job an easy one. When I got into swaging, I bought a swaging press to do it on, and I would probalby quit if I had to go back to a simple reloading press to do it now. There is a huge difference in quality and precision between the two types of presses.

Also, as John mentioned, a reloading press willl serve as an adequate way to swage bullets, but a swaging press is a much better set-up which will easily adapt to reloading cartridges if one press is all you want.

My swaging press even came with a shell holder adapter to make the switch to cartridge reloading an easy one, but I've never used it for that purpose. I still use a couple of Rock Chuckers to reload rifle cartridges.

Some old habits are hard to break, I guess. On the other hand, I can't imagine going back and trying to use one of the Rock Chuckers to swage bullets with.

JMO - BCB
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  #6  
Old 10-08-2006, 01:59 AM
DittoHead DittoHead is offline
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Default The Right Tool for the Job

What are the features of a swaging press that make it more suitable than a reloading press for swaging bullets?

I’m a firm believer in using the right tool for the job. I’m curious about the definition of “right tool.”
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  #7  
Old 10-09-2006, 03:47 PM
Bayou City Boy Bayou City Boy is offline
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Default I'll try.....

Probably the easiest way to compare a bullet swaging press with a regular reloading press is to take the press handle and wiggle it sideways at any point as you cycle the handle. On the reloading press, you will feel "wiggle" and slack in the linkage when you do that.

When you do that with a swaging press, there is absolutely no "wiggle" as all moving surfaces are honed to a more precise fit and all pivot points run on bearings instead of just simple machine bored metal to metal contact surfaces. Also the ram itself runs inside a machined sleeve that keeps it in perfect alignment as it moves up and down. It's not just a steel ram running inside a hole bored in a cast frame. The fit is a lot more precise and tight as far as tolerances are concerned. Yet, when the swaging handle is cycled, it moves very easily and smoothly with no "take-up" in the linkage, but it's movement also feels very tight and precise, if that makes sense.

That may be an oversimplification and not what you are looking for, but that's what I see in the swaging press I own versus a couple of RCBS Rock Chucker presses that I own. The more precise alignment is necessary as you use a lot more force to swage bullets, even when just making 20 caliber bullets, than you do re-sizing even large cartridge cases.

Like was stated earlier, you can certainly use a reloading press for bullet making. But with each pull of the handle on a swaging press, you can feel more certain that everything has stayed in as good alignment as possible because the press linkage itself is assembled with a lot more precision and works without any "take-up" like you have and can feel with a reloading press linkage when you put it under stress.

When I bought my swaging equipment, I seriously considered not buying the press. However, after receiving the swaging press I purchased (Corbin CSP-1 S-Press) and comparing the way it is built with a standard reloading press, it became obvious very quickly that it's just a better made device for the task at hand. I've never once regretted spending the extra money for it.

HTH - BCB
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I miss mean Tweets, competence, and $1.79 per gallon gasoline.

Yo no creo en santos que orinan.

Women and cats will do as they please. Men and dogs should relax and just get used to the idea.

Going keyboard postal over something that you read on the internet is like seeing a pile of dog crap on the sidewalk and choosing to step in it rather than stepping around it.

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Old 10-09-2006, 05:54 PM
DittoHead DittoHead is offline
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That explains it. Thanks, BCB.
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  #9  
Old 10-09-2006, 10:21 PM
jim saubier jim saubier is offline
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Default I'm not sure that I agree with this.

Our equipment has 3 dedicated presses, one for each step. We don't remove the dies or interchange the presses. Our presses are Reloading Presses that have been converted to bullet making operations. The conversion was done by Niemi Engineering, the makers of our bullet making dies and the process of converting them includes ensuring that they are square, that the ram is aligned with the die once it is in the press. The wiggle that you describe has nothing to do with the accuracy of the process, and I am pretty sure that most of the benchrest bullets made are done so using similar equipment. I wouldn't rule out a Rockchucker style press that has been modified and deemed acceptable for this task. I believe that most of the magic in bullet making is in the dies, the set-up, and the components used to assemble the bullets. I would love to see some pictures of your press, and would love to see how they work. If it is indeed better, I would consider using one. The stroke length, leverage, and durability are important to us, primarily due to the amount of pressure required to make a .30 caliber bullet. Our rockchucker style presses have extended length handles to make the job tolerable. My father (pappy) will be doing some write-ups on the process that we use to make bullets, which are .30 caliber bullets, ranging from 111 - 118 grains typically depending on the jacket length and core weight that we settle on for a particular lot of jackets.

Randy Robinett uses a horizontal press for core seating, but I believe he uses a press similar to ours for pointing up. His horizontal press is neat.
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  #10  
Old 10-10-2006, 01:53 AM
Bayou City Boy Bayou City Boy is offline
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Jim:

By saying what I did I'm not knocking anyone who uses an RCBS press for bullet making, as I realize a lot of folks use one. I'm sorry if that's what you took from my attempt to state why I like the press I use more than other options. I will just state again that the press I have is better made for the task - as it comes from the box - and I do understsand very well that it's the components that make a good bullet.

If I was going to have multiple presses to make volume bullets with, I would likely use a set-up very similar to what you use. I don't ... I make bulllets 3-4 hundred at a time for my own use, and I make them one step at a time so I do not need to worry about continually change out dies in the process as I purchased punch holders for each step of the process. Before I purchased the press I used, I talked with Clint Starke while he was still in business, and no one will argue that Clint did not make good bullets, and he used modified RCBS presses in part of his production. If I remember correctly, he also had a couple of, I believe, Corbin presses, and said they were efficient and worked well.

I also understand the RCBS presses that are used are beefed up and modified to do the job efficiently. I've seens several of them and don't doubt at all they make excellent bullets. I just chose to buy a press already geared for the job that needed no modifications, and would do so again. But thats' just me.

But, I am also acutely aware that I can make a terrible bullet using this press without my own personal attention to detail. Or I can pay attention to the details, which bullet making is all about, and make an excellent bullet with the press I use. Just like I imagine you do with the press you use.

Others may like the idea of using another press of various styles, and can consider me strange in some way, if they want, for spending extra dollars for the press I have. I in no way consider them strange or anything else for not buying the press I did. But, with the experience I now have with it, I would do it again....and money does not grow on trees at my house, either.

Going to Corbins web site is about the best place for you to get a picture of what his press looks like. In saying that, I am in no way pushing his toys to the world, I think many of his items are way overriced and I buy many swaging items from other sources.

And lastly, I tried to say that the wiggle was just one way that I see the press I have as being better made for doing the job - as it came from the box. I did not say a Rock Chucker would not swage a good bullet. I merely stated that the press I use has a much tigher linkage pretty much free from any pre-load, again, right out of the box. All pivot point are bearing loaded and not just metal to metal contact through bored holes. That helped to sell me at the time I bought my press....

With the S-Press I use, the individual die bodies themselves are screwed directly into the ram on the press and the punch holders are screwed into the top of the press with the punch pointing down. By having separate punch holders for each matched die and punch, I merely screw dies in and out along with each individual punch/punch holder which is pre-set for depth, check clearances that I need for the bullet weight/length I'm making, and I start the process,

Whether it's making cores, or seating them, or pointing up the jackets, I do each step one setting at a time. I may make 500 cores with one die setting, and then seat 300 of them before I move on to jacket forming for 300 bullets. Each step requires a simple removal of one die and punch/punch holder and the installation of the next matched die and punch/punch holder set.

I hope maybe this better expains what I was trying to say, and again I was in no way saying that good bullets only came from a press llike I use. It's just how I chose to do things when I bought my set-up, and with the good experience I've had with this press, I would probably buy another one just like it rather than use another type of press. But again, that's just me....

-BCB

Edited for spelling....

Further edit: The press I have has two stroke settings on it that are easily changed simply by removing a set pin. The long stroke I use only for taking .224" jackets down to @.198" and it is similar to the Rock Chucker stroke. It is the recommended stroke for using this press as a reloading press with the shell holder/reloading adapter which came with the press. Even though the longest jackets that I use are only 0.750" long to start with, the die and punch used for this operation requires a fairly long stroke to reduce the jackets down smoothly. Doing this does not require a lot of force to do it.

For swaging operations that require more force, the short stroke on the press gives you lots of leverage for swaging operations. It also allows for the ram to stay well inside the sleeve it runs in without excessive or long ram extension. I have no doubt in my mind that I get more effective swaging force per the pressure I apply to the handle with the short stroke setting than I could ever get on an RCBS press without an excessively long handle for applying additional leverage.

One other thing I like about this press is that there is no cam-over point or slack take-up on the short stroke. The more pressure you apply to the handle, the more pressure that is applied directly to the swaging operation throughout the entire stroke. And it's all very smooth and easy with the Corbin press.
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I miss mean Tweets, competence, and $1.79 per gallon gasoline.

Yo no creo en santos que orinan.

Women and cats will do as they please. Men and dogs should relax and just get used to the idea.

Going keyboard postal over something that you read on the internet is like seeing a pile of dog crap on the sidewalk and choosing to step in it rather than stepping around it.

If You're Afraid To Offend, You Can't Be Honest - Thomas Paine

Last edited by Bayou City Boy; 10-10-2006 at 03:55 AM.
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