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  #1  
Old 12-08-2006, 08:19 PM
Skinner Skinner is offline
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Default Lead Free Bullets

For those not aware of it, there has been a lawsuit filed in Federal court here in CA by a few enviro groups against the CA DFG that will probably result in the ban of lead based projectiles in ammunition for hunting.

This to ostensibly address the issue of lead poisoning of California condors from bullet fragments and shot they ingest from carrion. The lawsuit alledges that this amounts to a 'taking' of CA condors under the Endangered Species Act. So it looks like we may lose lead cored ammo in the condor range here in CA and perhaps AZ since they were introduced there as well.

We can argue all we want but if a ruling comes down that isn't favorable to our interests we need to adapt, I don't believe in letting "them" get me. And bear in mind that the precedence is then set to allow similar lawsuits in many other states where carrion feeders are ingesting lead fragments.

Soooo.............

Has anyone played with the powdered metals such as Corbin sells for making jacketed lead free bullets ? Tugsten, atomized copper, bismuth, etc. swaged into a pellet and then swaged into a jacket ?

I've used Sinter-Fire bullets in .22 centerfires with OK results.

http://www.sinterfire.com/news_events.html

But I'd think that for my .17 Rem., which is my main pelt friendly fur rifle, I'd say a jacketed bullet with that compressed powdered metal core would probably work well since it would be frangible and not exit.

Ideas and/or experiences are welcomed.
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  #2  
Old 12-08-2006, 09:31 PM
Mntngoat Mntngoat is offline
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Default Skinner, you must read Jim Matthews column.....

where are you located?

There is a big push to get lead out of big game bullets and Jim Matthews a local writer here has been pushing for it for years
Until technology changes I don't see how a lead free bullet would withstand the velocity we shoot the sub calibers at.

Of course there is solid copper bullets.
I personally think this is a along the lines "if we can't outlaw the guns lets outlaw the ammo until it is so cost prohibitive to shoot hunting and shooting will just go away.

20 years until I can retire and get out of this friggin state.

Just my thoughts.
Michael
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Old 12-09-2006, 12:03 AM
Skinner Skinner is offline
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I'm in NorCal but trap and call in CenCal a lot, right in condor country. We can only hope this is restricted to the delineated condor range, but this being the ESA in Federal court................

Quote:
Until technology changes I don't see how a lead free bullet would withstand the velocity we shoot the sub calibers at.
I'm shooting the Sinter-Fire 42 gr. bullets at 3200 fps out of a .222 Rem. and none have come "un-sintered" before striking a solid object yet. And those are not jacketed and the company claims velocities up to 3500 fps. are OK.

So I'd think that a tungsten or bismuth core swaged in a copper jacket for a .17 or .204 bullet would take the velocity.
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  #4  
Old 12-11-2006, 03:55 PM
Chucker Chucker is offline
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Default They are called "Green Bullets"

The military has been looking into the green bullets for some time now, they were trying to do the right thing and not put so much lead into the ground at their shooting ranges.

Do not know if they are using this stuff right now or not. My guess is they are.

I looked into this stuff some time back. I wanted to create some bullets with a powdered tungsten core. Tungsten is 1.5 time heaver than lead. This would allow us to shoot a 65 to 70 grain bullet with out having to use a fast twist barrel. The bullet would be as long as a current 55 gr.

It seemed to me they were mixing a polymer powder, or some tin powder with the tungsten to form the cores and make the tunsten stick together.

Seem like a great idea for paper shooters and varmint hunters. I do not think the bullet would hold up for big game hunting though.

Wish I had funding to play with.
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Old 01-07-2007, 08:44 PM
bohica2xo bohica2xo is offline
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I have been working with the Tin/Tungsten powdered core bullets for some time now.

For varmint bullets, they are great. Under the right conditions, they can be very fur friendly too. One entry, no exit.

I have recently begun working with the new Barnes .224 36 grain powder core bullet. They will begin marketing it at SHOT as the "Varmint Grenade".

So far I am very impressed with the barnes offering. You cant push them much over 4000fps, but below that they work well.

I may be able to share a few boxes of these with you guys later this month, let me know if you are interested.

B.
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  #6  
Old 01-07-2007, 08:59 PM
Gary in Illinois Gary in Illinois is offline
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Default Non - lead bullets

I would be interested in both the bullets and how they are made, as well. I would appreciate any information you may have to share. Feel free to either PM or email me off-line.

Thanks,
Gary
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  #7  
Old 01-09-2007, 03:57 AM
Kyle Kyle is offline
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Some Air Force Bases are using non-lead practice 223 ammo to cut down costs of cleaning up the ranges. Shot some last fall loaded by Federal, bullets were copper jacketed with a big brown tip. Guys running the range said the bullets were pretty much the same as the glaser.
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  #8  
Old 01-09-2007, 01:21 PM
LHH LHH is offline
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I had some solid copper bullets machined on a lathe based on a engineer's design.
The best design came by adding a ballistic tip so the center of gravity was pushed back. A 27 to 28 grain bullet ends up the same length as the Berger 37's, so fast twist barrels are needed. You lose weight, but you pick up speed and relative BC so you actually gain performance in many ways.
Accuracy was not as good as traditional bullets.
Powdered metal bullets are very cheap to make, but tolerances are very wide compared with swaged or machined bullets.
Check out http://gscustom.co.za/, this company makes solid bullets.
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  #9  
Old 01-09-2007, 05:06 PM
bohica2xo bohica2xo is offline
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Gary:

I will let you know when I have more bullets on hand. As for the manufacturing process, it is fairly straightforeward. A jacketed bullet, with a pressed core installed. The tricky part is getting the tin/tungsten blend to stay at the same density during processing. Barnes has this worked out, and is able to make a very repeatable bullet. Tungsten provides density beyond that of lead, and allows design adjustments otherwise unobtainable.


LHH:

Machined bullets are inexpensive, accurate paper punches. I have shot a lot of machined bullets at paper targets, and they can be very accurate. Advances in CNC technology have reduced the cost of manufacturing somewhat. Barnes makes a nice banded solid in .224 diameter. It shoots well, but is not suitable for game.

Skinner's original post was directed at the pending actions against lead in hunting bullets. Manufacturing an expanding bullet that has no lead poses new challenges. I think we will see a rush to build alternatives by other manufacturers if CA passes any kind of legislation - just like what happened to the shotshell industry when lead shot was banned for hunting.

Sintered or pressed powder bullets without jackets tend to have a large swing in tolerances. The bullets I am discussing are copper jacketed, with a pressed powder core. The process of final assembly is similar to any other high quality jacketed bullet - and the accuracy is the same.


B.
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  #10  
Old 01-16-2007, 05:38 PM
Daryl Daryl is offline
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B - That Barnes bullet sounds just perfect for those Ruger#1's in .218Bee.
: 35gr. Vmax's run just under 4,000fps from my 26" barrel without pressure signs above normal - less than the .222 Rem using book loads.
: I'm looking forward to seeing them arrive on the market.
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