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  #71  
Old 02-11-2019, 11:46 PM
NoZombies NoZombies is offline
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Originally Posted by squirrel_slayer View Post
Which one

The reason I got the .327 to 7.65FL is Starline actually does a periodic run of 7.65FL brass and someone did a cross section of it and determined it was 32 H&R brass that had been modified for the FL.

I intend on buying the wife a G42 in the near future and I have an old 30-06 barrel that i've squirreled away for years now. I plan on doing a insert barrel with it. (to fit the .380 chamber and barrel) then just profile in the feed ramp to match. Then just rocksett it by the chamber only. that way if I wanted i could just soak it in water and press it out.

If it worked out i'll see if a buddy of mine would allow me some time on his bridgeport and machine up a threaded barrel and do another F1 can but a tiny wet and wiped 1"x4" can. ala james bond

QL predicts 1050ft/sec from the 85gr xtp with the standard 3.25" barrel @ 30k, and it picks up 50 ft/sec per 5k psi with just shy of 1200ft/sec@ 45k

The 3.85" of a threaded barrel with the same bullet is as follows. 1090@30k, 1155@35k, 1200@40k and 1240@45k
That's the one that is the most immediately intriguing to me. I actually went in the shop last night and cut up a little brass to see if I could visualize what you where talking about.

I missed the part where you wanted to build it for a .380 platform, so I was cutting to make a cartridge fit in the 9mm magazine length.

(Between a .32 ACP and a 9mm)



I started with a piece of .30 carbine brass, and I cut it to .800 and ran it through a .30 carb sizing die, then used a .32 ACP seating die to seat and crimp a bullet at .313" diameter. OAL is 1.040" It wouldn't be hard to cut it back a little further, say .725, and seat a shorter bullet and stay under the .984 OAL for a .380 platform.

I didn't have any spare .327 brass handy, so I used the .30 carbine brass I did have handy. The .30 carbine brass is good for at least 40KPSI, and I suspect cutting it back without reaming or neck turning would make very stout brass that would last a long time, even at 40KPSI or a little higher...

Whadda ya think? Is that anything close to what you were thinking?
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  #72  
Old 02-12-2019, 02:12 AM
NoZombies NoZombies is offline
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Originally Posted by pocketshaver View Post
...Gamo Viper air shotgun kind of kills reloadable center fire 22lr.

Make that case out of good brass, drill the bottom for a small rifle primer, and as long as the front takes a properly sized pellet or lead bb, you have your replacement round.
Just to revisit this, because I can't wrap my head around your logic; On the left of the photo below is the .22 ladybug case made with home-made dies and a mini-lathe, on the right is an aftermarket Gamo Viper shell made by Ray-Vin from aluminum on a cnc screw machine with bar feeder:



I'm trying to understand how the gamo viper shell would be in any way easier or less complex than the ladybug? If there's a real answer, I am curious.
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  #73  
Old 02-12-2019, 02:18 AM
squirrel_slayer squirrel_slayer is offline
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nice looking boolit! what does it weigh?

The profile of the xtp fits perfect in the standard length FL case. (I had measured it in the past)

I just so happened to find 2 rouge 32 h&r cases a few days ago from when I bought the wife a 32 mag revo. Chucked it up in the lathe and turned the rim down, then shortened it to .777" (was to lazy to bring it down the last few thou lol) I had a partial box of 100 xtp's laying around. They are identical to the 85's with the exception of the length post ogive. Seated it .980" and there is still .010-.020" before the ogive (hard to see with the picture)


Left to right 32 acp, 7.65FL w/xtp, 380 acp, and 32 h&r case for reference
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  #74  
Old 02-12-2019, 02:40 AM
NoZombies NoZombies is offline
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Originally Posted by squirrel_slayer View Post
nice looking boolit! what does it weigh?

The profile of the xtp fits perfect in the standard length FL case. (I had measured it in the past)

I just so happened to find 2 rouge 32 h&r cases a few days ago from when I bought the wife a 32 mag revo. Chucked it up in the lathe and turned the rim down, then shortened it to .777" (was to lazy to bring it down the last few thou lol) I had a partial box of 100 xtp's laying around. They are identical to the 85's with the exception of the length post ogive. Seated it .980" and there is still .010-.020" before the ogive (hard to see with the picture)


Left to right 32 acp, 7.65FL w/xtp, 380 acp, and 32 h&r case for reference
Very cool little cartridge, running 40KPSI I bet it'll do a number on small game or unwanted house guests!

The little bullet in mine is a 65 grain HP designed for the .32 ACP. It's about .250" from the crimp groove to nose. It's done pretty well for me as a plinking bullet, and cast soft and running 1,200 FPS it just about turns itself inside out in varmints.
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  #75  
Old 02-12-2019, 02:58 AM
squirrel_slayer squirrel_slayer is offline
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Yeah looks cool and I think the concept is sound. just a matter of bringing it to fruition. Lord knows I have enough projects as it is.

Just for fun I punched in a 60gr xtp and it predicts 1450 ft/sec from the little mouser! Thats at 40k psi and the standard length 3.25" barrel. pretty sure that bullet would frag and underpenetrate at those speeds.

Thats a sweet looking bullet. makes the lowly 32 look mean!
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  #76  
Old 02-12-2019, 03:20 AM
NoZombies NoZombies is offline
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Originally Posted by squirrel_slayer View Post
Yeah looks cool and I think the concept is sound. just a matter of bringing it to fruition. Lord knows I have enough projects as it is.
I understand that! Keep us informed, I like the concept a lot!
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  #77  
Old 02-12-2019, 06:29 AM
pocketshaver pocketshaver is offline
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Originally Posted by NoZombies View Post
Just to revisit this, because I can't wrap my head around your logic; On the left of the photo below is the .22 ladybug case made with home-made dies and a mini-lathe, on the right is an aftermarket Gamo Viper shell made by Ray-Vin from aluminum on a cnc screw machine with bar feeder:



I'm trying to understand how the gamo viper shell would be in any way easier or less complex than the ladybug? If there's a real answer, I am curious.
1st rule of production/product design
When designing a product, ALWAYS use sub components that can be bought off the shelf and used as is.

2nd rule of production/product design
If a sub component cant be used as is from the shelf, use a pre existing sub component that can be modified easily to work.

3rd rule of production/product design
Capacity will always make it cheaper for start up costs.

as is, that gamo viper shot shell in your picture is almost completed, that extra thickness on the rim and the over all length... but still the CNC screw machine can do ALL the work in one go.

No dies, no machining the extra hump of brass off the case web.

as for Company X, well they already make an off the shelf component that looks like your little cartridge case. Because they are a major company they let people change the dimensions on the part. If I wanted I could get it to exact 22lr dimensions SANS the radius on the rim. Or I could get it sized to become a 38 special if I wanted.

And the whole primer pocket, well the part is intended for the hole in the middle to be drilled as a blind hole.

as for the 25 acp case getting necked down. its not perfect/ideal/as nice as a 360 weatherby magnum. but it suffices. Anyone can do it. If they can anneal the case, and chop saw a cheap .223 Remington die, or a hornet die.

what would it take to purchase brand new right now the lathe and tool setup your using, and your hydraulic press, plus the cost of the swaging dies?

I guess its a case of "the not so pretty everymans tool" versus "cant be afforded by most anyone".
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  #78  
Old 02-12-2019, 02:27 PM
The Old Redneck The Old Redneck is offline
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Give your finished case O.D. and length . Could use to make reamer and dies. Will look for reamer I used to make heeled bullet swage dies. May revisit rim to centerfire rounds as time permits. Having round that would actually fit existing chamber would be interesting. Thank You Sir
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  #79  
Old 02-12-2019, 04:48 PM
NoZombies NoZombies is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pocketshaver View Post
1st rule of production/product design
When designing a product, ALWAYS use sub components that can be bought off the shelf and used as is.

2nd rule of production/product design
If a sub component cant be used as is from the shelf, use a pre existing sub component that can be modified easily to work.

3rd rule of production/product design
Capacity will always make it cheaper for start up costs.

as is, that gamo viper shot shell in your picture is almost completed, that extra thickness on the rim and the over all length... but still the CNC screw machine can do ALL the work in one go.

No dies, no machining the extra hump of brass off the case web.

as for Company X, well they already make an off the shelf component that looks like your little cartridge case. Because they are a major company they let people change the dimensions on the part. If I wanted I could get it to exact 22lr dimensions SANS the radius on the rim. Or I could get it sized to become a 38 special if I wanted.

And the whole primer pocket, well the part is intended for the hole in the middle to be drilled as a blind hole.

as for the 25 acp case getting necked down. its not perfect/ideal/as nice as a 360 weatherby magnum. but it suffices. Anyone can do it. If they can anneal the case, and chop saw a cheap .223 Remington die, or a hornet die.

what would it take to purchase brand new right now the lathe and tool setup your using, and your hydraulic press, plus the cost of the swaging dies?

I guess its a case of "the not so pretty everymans tool" versus "cant be afforded by most anyone".
Again, your arguments are self defeating. If I was planning to go into production of a commercially viable cartridge, I would take a completely different approach. But even if that was the intention (it's not) prototyping isn't done 5K pieces at a time on rented machine time for the home hobbyist.

Making a run of CNC lathe brass would actually be one of the easier ways to make a small production run of the ladybug, but I would have the company make the brass viable and complete and ready to load.

To accurately "drill" a primer pocket over a run of 5,000 pieces of brass would require much better equipment than what I have.

So this part of your argument is completely pointless, as the "gamo shell" would hold zero advantage over the ladybug with the exception of case capacity, but of course, then you've just got the CCM (with minor dimensional changes at the rim etc) The shape of the viper shell would be very hard to work with in any kind of magazine, so you'd end up with something either unworkable except for single shots, or you'd modify the design until it pretty closely resembled the ladybug.

Secondly, All of the original design and construction work for the first cases was done using a Rock Chucker and a drill press. Then I worked on making the process more efficient using the tools I had on hand. This is how prototyping is done. I'm going to bet that most reloaders have a single stage press with compound linkage and a drill press...

Again, I can say with some confidence that you haven't tried the .25 ACP in a cut down hornet die. I have. It doesn't just make usable brass. Neither does running it into a cut down .223 die. You won't believe me, because you've never tried it, but many of the folks here already know that what I'm saying is true because they've done enough experimentation themselves. I'll give you a clue though, either one gives you serious run-out problems because the case body is unsupported, and the hornet die squeezes the much thicker brass down to a point that whatever necks don't crease, will still have to be reamed and trued. Beyond that, if you don't have the tools to make your own reamer, you'll have to buy one. (Not a huge deal, but the ladybug can be reamed using off the shelf chucking reamers that are $20 or less)

I'm sorry you don't like me for some perceived grievance, but I feel like I'm trying to explain snow to someone in the Sahara. Your assertion that frozen yogurt is better isn't relevant, and doesn't mean snow doesn't exist.
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  #80  
Old 02-12-2019, 05:14 PM
NoZombies NoZombies is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Old Redneck View Post
Give your finished case O.D. and length . Could use to make reamer and dies. Will look for reamer I used to make heeled bullet swage dies. May revisit rim to centerfire rounds as time permits. Having round that would actually fit existing chamber would be interesting. Thank You Sir
It's actually really simple! The OD of the case is .247 without taper, the extractor relief cut is .228 diameter, but I don't recall the angle off the top of my head (I'll check and get back, but it's a standard relief angle) the rim thickness is .043 +/- (most .25 ACP brass is a little under that) and cut to .278 diameter. I trim to .625 OAL.

You can use a cut down 218 bee seating die to seat and crimp, but after the first firing, I usually ream the brass to .224 to a depth that will act as a firm stop for the base of the bullet at the right OAL, and from then on, I can thumb seat the bullets (sized .2245) in unsized fired brass, and it only needs resized every dozen or so reloads so the brass lasts just about forever because it's getting worked so little.

I rechamber existing .22 LR chambers using a .2500 chucking reamer. I ream to .635 depth for a little bit of room for powder residue, although I'm not sure it's necessary.

The rechambered .22LR guns have been easy to get to shoot well, and the case dimensions mean that other than the rechamber and CF conversion, no other real work is needed as long as pressures are kept to around 25KPSI.

I'd be very interested in the heel based bullets as well, I've been talking to another gentleman who's been working on a similar project, but his round actually is at .222 diameter and using a heeled bullet. He's got a contender barrel, and goes back and forth from RF to CF to compare his loads to factory target offerings.

He's using lathe turned brass and a brooks heel bullet mold. We've talked about getting together and working on both projects together.
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