17 caliber solid copper hyper velocity

[bado1]

You are absolutely right, ramos. 20 grains of flying copper would be absolutely lethal. My point is that many guys seem to think that because the bullet is a solid that its going to bounce or penetrate and keep on going more so than a conventional bullet but, as you stated, I have seen conventional bullets and even lead cast bullets do some scary things. My thoughts on it being only 20 grains is that it's energy would diminish much more quickly than something heavier even if it wasn't a solid to begin with. Safety is, of course, paramount no matter what is being shot. I hunt in wide open spaces with no structures or people near so using a solid wouldn't be as much of a concern as it would if one hunted in more populated areas where using a solid would not be a good practice. You and I are on the same page

Dean

[ramos]

Dean, at the risk of side tracking this thread, I have a question. From what little I have read about these solid projectiles, stabilizing and grouping seems to be a common issue. Obviously, being made from one solid piece of material, consistency should be exceptionally good. Is the problem bullet length, barrel twist requirements, or what? Just curious.

[bado1]

Twist and length of the bullet is the key.
Dean

[ramos]

Gotcha, thanks.

[bado1]

ramos,
Sorry about the short reply. I tried to add to it via edit but it logged me out so I'll try again

Matching the bullet length to barrel twist is the key. I think that some guys think that they can go buy copper bullets in the same weight as a conventional bullet that shoots well from their gun not realizing that the copper bullet is much longer and will not stabilize the same as the conventional bullet. For example, a 6.5mm 110 grain all copper bullet is close to the same length as a 140 grain conventional bullet and would stabilize in a barrel that stabilizes the 140 grain conventional bullet. GS Custom bullets has specific caliber/twist/bullet charts that are very helpful when choosing the proper bullet for your barrel twist. Their bullets are not cheap so you don't want to have to do too much experimentation!

Dean

[17tbs]

Such discussion of the copper bullets is great. However the goal I have here was more than met by a healthy dose of H4198. It managed to get me way past 4500 fps. The question remaining for me is, how effective is a solid non hollow point going to do, what's the wound track look like, and does it generate secondary wounding traces that do more damage than the actual copper bullet by itself. Is anyone able to convince a super smart guy to run a FEA simulation of impact on say, a hog at 4400fps? Or show some field data.

Also, I need a place to test this out myself somewhere and South or Central Texas does anybody have some hogs?

[17tbs]

Ramos,

Are the 9 grain bullets you have been shooting at nearly 5000fps hollow pointed in any way?, could you give a photo of one of those tiny things up close?

Hutch.

[ramos]

Hutch,

Was not me. I am just the guy that jumped in to this thread with a few questions. Zero knowledge, zero experience and zero exposure to solid projectiles .

Ramos

[aaronraad]

Designing a projectile to withstand near maximum launch velocity and then expecting it to effectively dissapate all or a percentage of its energy at the target is complicated.

To induce tumbling you would want a projectile at least 4 calibres in length when launched at >2500 fps. This might need to be longer for higher velocities as you need to force the projectile to pitch & yaw before it's out the other side.

The terminal effects will become more variable as you increase the depth and density of your target media. Consider the difference in the terminal ballistics if the projectile does not tumble and achieves full penetration each time. The terminal effects on a rodent compared to a swine will change accordingly. Do some quick sums to calculate the time spent inside different widths of target media, at different velocities. Much quicker than FEA.

Consider the other end of the scale, a subsonic 40gr 22LR projectile. Why can this projectile and velocity combination still take game humanely? Shot placement, adequate energy transfer and an undisturbed target. How do you see a highly velocity .172 calibre solid fitting the bill, as you may find it has a very limited working range?

[Tim Anderson]

If the solids are working for you guys great..
I tried them years ago and the biggest problem was to get them to group in more than one gun as not all barrels have the exact same bore dia...
To tight of a barrel caused high pressures or prevented you from getting max. load for the weight used.. Too loose of a barrel kept the bullet from sealing up around the rifleing as it passed down the barrel, which caused the gases to escape around to the front of bullet.. A solid copper bullet is just that solid, how soft the copper is will determine if you will get a tight seal or not..
A FMJ bullet is filled with lead which allows the copper to give some to form a tight bore seal..
As far as shooting red fox or coyotes just plan on takeing a second shot or make sure you have a dog along to chase the cripple done and plan on sewing two holes up rather than just one if you save fur..
FMJ were used years ago to help keep the damage down on the hides, also was'nt much of a selection of bullets back then so you had to use what worked at the time.. They were far from perfect but like I said it was all we had.. Not too many hide hunters use a FMJ any more as now we have a better choice, and yeah those solids are going to bounce or skip around when they hit frozen ground..
I have a 800 yd. shooting range which consists of an old dead end gravel road. In the spring or summer I will walk down this road and find bullets that have hit the ground. Most FMJ found had a deformed tip but still intact and some looked good enough to shoot again..
As far as the H.P. I would find (what I use the most) just the jacket seperated from the core and with the tip missing or more than half the jacket gone.
A couple years back I took a shot at a coyote roughly 400 yards from me with a 17 cal. 30 gr. gold bullet, first shot was just a tad high hitting the ground above and behind the coyote. Another shooter posted up in a wood lot to the left of the coyote about 300 yds. heard the bullet whizz through the air as it passed his location, most likely it was the core or part of the bullet, but happened none the less.