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  #11  
Old 05-18-2022, 08:26 PM
Bayou City Boy Bayou City Boy is offline
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Originally Posted by B23 View Post
Isn't the case taper less with the 20 Tac than it is with its 223 parent case?

Don't you have to fireform in order to enlarge the diameter of the body of the case so it has less taper?
It does have slightly less taper. However, it is almost imperceptible on formed brass. Even with the fact that Tac 20 brass has a shoulder that has been pushed back on a 223 Rem cartridge.

Once again. The point I was making is that with a newly formed piece of brass that I shoot the exact same load (brass, primer, bullet, and powder charge) that I reload the cartridge with for later firings. Bullet impact in both of my rifles is the same with a new piece of brass as it is with brass loaded more than once. And my chrony, and a couple of others that I'm famiiar with, could not see a difference in velocity. This was with low deviation loads.

It's been years since I asked others, but other Tac 20 shooters saw the same thing 15-20 years ago. If "fire forming" does take place, it's more kin to shooting factory ammo in a rifle to "fireform" the factory brass to the chamber. If you are a follower of the shoot a light load and jam bullets to fire form brass (like some internet AI fans and experts push), you might not get the same results.

Again, YMMV, and in many cases, the "What I own works best" syndrome comes into play for many who argue otherwise. I plan to hang onto my 20 P rifle (AKA as the 1980's 5MM-223) but not because making brass for it is easier than making Tac 20 brass is with my 20-22 year old Redding form die.

That is my experience from working with both cartridges, and it's not from working with one and reading about the other one on the internet.............

YMMV..........

-BCB
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Last edited by Bayou City Boy; 05-18-2022 at 08:59 PM.
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  #12  
Old 05-18-2022, 09:56 PM
B23 B23 is offline
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Originally Posted by Bayou City Boy View Post
It does have slightly less taper. However, it is almost imperceptible on formed brass. Even with the fact that Tac 20 brass has a shoulder that has been pushed back on a 223 Rem cartridge.

Once again. The point I was making is that with a newly formed piece of brass that I shoot the exact same load (brass, primer, bullet, and powder charge) that I reload the cartridge with for later firings. Bullet impact in both of my rifles is the same with a new piece of brass as it is with brass loaded more than once. And my chrony, and a couple of others that I'm famiiar with, could not see a difference in velocity. This was with low deviation loads.

It's been years since I asked others, but other Tac 20 shooters saw the same thing 15-20 years ago. If "fire forming" does take place, it's more kin to shooting factory ammo in a rifle to "fireform" the factory brass to the chamber. If you are a follower of the shoot a light load and jam bullets to fire form brass (like some internet AI fans and experts push), you might not get the same results.

Again, YMMV, and in many cases, the "What I own works best" syndrome comes into play for many who argue otherwise. I plan to hang onto my 20 P rifle (AKA as the 1980's 5MM-223) but not because making brass for it is easier than making Tac 20 brass is with my 20-22 year old Redding form die.

That is my experience from working with both cartridges, and it's not from working with one and reading about the other one on the internet.............

YMMV..........

-BCB
The fact that you can load your new die formed brass and multiple times chamber formed to your rifle brass with the exact same load and could not see any difference in anything let alone velocity across your chronograph is impressive to say the least.

As for forming brass on a AI or "improved" chamber I don't believe I've ever heard of anyone using "light loads" and jamming in to the lands. Though it is common practice to use higher end loads and jam in to the lands and that's not internet talk but from gunsmiths and BR shooters, sometimes those are even one and the same. As I've stated here before I have multiple AI or improved chambers and fireform with upper end loads and a certain amount of jam.
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  #13  
Old 05-18-2022, 10:11 PM
Bayou City Boy Bayou City Boy is offline
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The fact that you can load your new die formed brass and multiple times chamber formed to your rifle brass with the exact same load and could not see any difference in anything let alone velocity across your chronograph is impressive to say the least.

As for forming brass on a AI or "improved" chamber I don't believe I've ever heard of anyone using "light loads" and jamming in to the lands. Though it is common practice to use higher end loads and jam in to the lands and that's not internet talk but from gunsmiths and BR shooters, sometimes those are even one and the same. As I've stated here before I have multiple AI or improved chambers and fireform with upper end loads and a certain amount of jam.
One can easily read that light loads and jamming bullets to hold brass in place are both often seen "options" for fire forming AI brass from factory brass. Not necessarily in tandem always. When I see an expert do it that way, I shrug my shoulders and move on. A shorter head spaced properly cut AI chamber and using stout loads is the only fool proof way to make AI brass. And the bullet is not needed to help the process other than doing what bullets do. Which is freely going down the barrel.

And a chamber that has been "reamed to 40 degrees" without setting the barrel back results in only one thing. That one thing is a rifle owner who has an "AI chamber" that is long on head space. It can be overcome with die adjustments for reloading purposes, but die adjustments do nothing for the first firing when incipient head separation on the cartridge has begun.

btw...... Didn't we have all or some part of this discussion a few months back? iirc, you decided back then that I google-fu everything that I post and that I know nothing about AI rifles or chambers.

Once again, YMMV.

BCB
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Yo no creo en santos que orinan.

Women and cats will do as they please. Men and dogs should relax and just get used to the idea.

Going keyboard postal over something that you read on the internet is like seeing a pile of dog crap on the sidewalk and choosing to step in it rather than stepping around it.

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Last edited by Bayou City Boy; 05-18-2022 at 11:22 PM.
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  #14  
Old 05-19-2022, 12:27 AM
B23 B23 is offline
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Originally Posted by Bayou City Boy View Post
btw...... Didn't we have all or some part of this discussion a few months back? iirc, you decided back then that I google-fu everything that I post and that I know nothing about AI rifles or chambers.
I never said you know nothing about improved chambers but you definitely google a lot of the information you like to pass off as first hand. That's why you grossly overstate your examples like your claim of using the exact same load with virgin die formed brass as you do with multiple times fired and formed to the chamber of your gun brass but seeing absolutely zero difference in anything even the velocity across your chronograph was unchanged. That's so ridiculous I'm almost embarrassed for you.

These people are easy to spot because even unsolicited they cry foul and reflect when they spout off about internet experts or google-fu's.

Also, in a perfect world where new brass all came out of the box at spec size your example/s would be largely accurate and you would have a nice crush fit but we don't live in a perfect world and new brass often comes out of the box in a variety of sizes much of it undersize so you don't always get that perfect world crush fit which is why jamming the bullet is the one constant you can control.
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  #15  
Old 05-19-2022, 01:16 AM
Bill K Bill K is offline
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There are a couple ways to fire form brass, and many use both or prefer and use one or the other. Neither is wrong, if that is how you want to get the job done.
From what I have read on Parker, his idea was and he did it that way, way to just load a cartridge, with a upper end charge and fire it in his improved chamber.
So. use the manner you want to do and let the other guy do as he wants.
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  #16  
Old 05-19-2022, 04:11 AM
Bayou City Boy Bayou City Boy is offline
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i never said you know nothing about improved chambers but you definitely google a lot of the information you like to pass off as first hand. that's why you grossly overstate your examples like your claim of using the exact same load with virgin die formed brass as you do with multiple times fired and formed to the chamber of your gun brass but seeing absolutely zero difference in anything even the velocity across your chronograph was unchanged. That's so ridiculous i'm almost embarrassed for you.

And here I gave you credit for what's below in bold black print, when in fact you were actually calling me a liar. Surprise, surprise coming from you..... NOT.

Quote:
"The fact that you can load your new die formed brass and multiple times chamber formed to your rifle brass with the exact same load and could not see any difference in anything let alone velocity across your chronograph is impressive to say the least."

What you are saying at the top of this abortion and just above is not what I said. What I said is that in a string of 5 consecutive shots through a chrony, two of which shots (for example) were fired from more than once fired brass, that the two shots looked fine and fit into low deviation 5 shot load data when their velocities were compared to newly formed once fired brass shot data in the same consecutive five shot string of data. And all five shots grouped in very nice small 5 shot groups.

A few times I cranked some windage in to move shots away from my aiming point and I shot 2 five shot groups with mixed brass. In those situations I had nice 10 shot groups where it was impossible to tell which holes belonged to which cartridges. Further, if you walked down and looked at the 5 shot or 10 shot groups on the target without knowing which shots were which, you had no clue as to which holes belonged to new or multi-fired brass shots on the target I saw it more than once from my two Tac 20 rifles. And yes, others have told me the same thing as far as groups are concerned on targets

Hey, I'm inquisitive, I'm retired, and to sooth my inquisitive mind, I sometimes have extra time on my hands to actually sooth my inquisitive mind in different ways..... You should try it sometime as you seem to be fairly narrowed minded and biases toward just what you think that you know as facts. Of course, YMMV, B23



I overstate things at times to try to post once about something instead of three times.... I'm so honored that you, B23, the saviour of the internet, is looking out for me. But you seem to be calling me a liar about something you know nothing factual about....? Or do you live in one or more of my gun safes?


Quote:
these people are easy to spot because even unsolicited they cry foul and reflect when they spout off about internet experts or google-fu's.

Also, in a perfect world where new brass all came out of the box at spec size your example/s would be largely accurate and you would have a nice crush fit but we don't live in a perfect world and new brass often comes out of the box in a variety of sizes much of it undersize so you don't always get that perfect world crush fit which is why jamming the bullet is the one constant you cab control
Duh....on today's rifle brass. Not true on bullet jamming, but carry on anyway with that...this is your rodeo.

(hiint: a false case neck formed on every piece of new brass fitted to a rifle chamber will give all cartridges a crush fit, cartridge by cartridge, in both good regular and good AI chambers, and it negates less than perfect brass.) For my hunting loads, in both regular and AI chambers, it's what I've done for 10+, maybe even 15 years, due to poor quality rifle brass. Notice that I said hunting rifles and not pd rifles. And before you ask and I have to explain later, I don't shoot pd's with AI cartridges. A false shoulder is just another way to skin a mangy alley cat that looks like today's factory brass.


So that I don't have to repeat myself again, I'll just accept everything about me as you see it. LOL....you win. And please don't be embarressed for me. I'm perfectly comfortable in my old wrinkled skin.

But Dang....!! What am I going to tell my real friends now that you've outed me here once again?. I hope that they don't try to cheat me by telling me that since I only google what I know that all of my rifles are cheap rejects that I should give away to them. I can't afford that happening.


Nighty Night, B23.

-BCB
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I miss mean Tweets, competence, and $1.79 per gallon gasoline.

Yo no creo en santos que orinan.

Women and cats will do as they please. Men and dogs should relax and just get used to the idea.

Going keyboard postal over something that you read on the internet is like seeing a pile of dog crap on the sidewalk and choosing to step in it rather than stepping around it.

If You're Afraid To Offend, You Can't Be Honest - Thomas Paine

Last edited by Bayou City Boy; 05-19-2022 at 04:20 AM.
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  #17  
Old 05-19-2022, 01:58 PM
B23 B23 is offline
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Originally Posted by Bayou City Boy View Post
The point I was making is that with a newly formed piece of brass that I shoot the exact same load (brass, primer, bullet, and powder charge) that I reload the cartridge with for later firings. Bullet impact in both of my rifles is the same with a new piece of brass as it is with brass loaded more than once. And my chrony, and a couple of others that I'm famiiar with, could not see a difference in velocity. This was with low deviation loads.

BCB
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bayou City Boy View Post
What I said is that in a string of 5 consecutive shots through a chrony, two of which shots (for example) were fired from more than once fired brass, that the two shots looked fine and fit into low deviation 5 shot load data when their velocities were compared to newly formed once fired brass shot data in the same consecutive five shot string of data. And all five shots grouped in very nice small 5 shot groups.

A few times I cranked some windage in to move shots away from my aiming point and I shot 2 five shot groups with mixed brass. In those situations I had nice 10 shot groups where it was impossible to tell which holes belonged to which cartridges. Further, if you walked down and looked at the 5 shot or 10 shot groups on the target without knowing which shots were which, you had no clue as to which holes belonged to new or multi-fired brass shots on the target I saw it more than once from my two Tac 20 rifles. And yes, others have told me the same thing as far as groups are concerned on targets

-BCB
Nope, that's not what you said, not really even close, but I will certainly give you and A for effort on trying to walk it back. If nothing else, you're a funny dude.

I love how you always build these exit strategies in to your long winded blah blah blah retorts. I suppose that's your way of trying to always have the last word. I'm sure you'll reply with yet another long winded retort filled full of irrelevance.
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  #18  
Old 05-19-2022, 03:48 PM
Bayou City Boy Bayou City Boy is offline
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Nope, that's not what you said, not really even close, but I will certainly give you and A for effort on trying to walk it back. If nothing else, you're a funny dude.

I love how you always build these exit strategies in to your long winded blah blah blah retorts. I suppose that's your way of trying to always have the last word. I'm sure you'll reply with yet another long winded retort filled full of irrelevance.
LOL.... It is what I was trying to say. Please declare yourself the king of the internet and move on to your next "conquest".. It seems important to you. In the interim I hope that you won't mind if I continue to post here like I have since ~2000.

-BCB
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I miss mean Tweets, competence, and $1.79 per gallon gasoline.

Yo no creo en santos que orinan.

Women and cats will do as they please. Men and dogs should relax and just get used to the idea.

Going keyboard postal over something that you read on the internet is like seeing a pile of dog crap on the sidewalk and choosing to step in it rather than stepping around it.

If You're Afraid To Offend, You Can't Be Honest - Thomas Paine

Last edited by Bayou City Boy; 05-19-2022 at 03:50 PM.
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  #19  
Old 05-19-2022, 05:55 PM
Bayou City Boy Bayou City Boy is offline
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Originally Posted by Bill K View Post
There are a couple ways to fire form brass, and many use both or prefer and use one or the other. Neither is wrong, if that is how you want to get the job done.
From what I have read on Parker, his idea was and he did it that way, way to just load a cartridge, with a upper end charge and fire it in his improved chamber.
So. use the manner you want to do and let the other guy do as he wants.

I couldn't agree more, Bill. My only beef here is being told that I only know what I can google. Coming from someone who knows nothing about me in real life, it's both comical and frustrating at the same time.

I post what I know as being factual, which came from many other sources over 50+ years of "playing" with rifles, including my own experience.

I doubt that there are a bunch of people who false shoulder new brass for their hunting rifles. I do it because it works for me. It may not be something that the next guy does, and I could care less. But it is an option for me in doing something to solve the modern day rifle brass problem other than bitching about it on the internet like some people do.

-BCB
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I miss mean Tweets, competence, and $1.79 per gallon gasoline.

Yo no creo en santos que orinan.

Women and cats will do as they please. Men and dogs should relax and just get used to the idea.

Going keyboard postal over something that you read on the internet is like seeing a pile of dog crap on the sidewalk and choosing to step in it rather than stepping around it.

If You're Afraid To Offend, You Can't Be Honest - Thomas Paine

Last edited by Bayou City Boy; 05-19-2022 at 06:14 PM.
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  #20  
Old 05-19-2022, 06:33 PM
B23 B23 is offline
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Text book Narcissist.
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