Ran a 30 carbine case through the Garin Form Dies tonight

[JDHasty]

I’ve got something like a thousand once fired Privi cases sitting here and just for the heck of it decided to run one through the series. Wow! That sure was easy. It went through like crap through a goose.

If the rest of them go like that, I surely cannot appreciate what PO Ackley provided as reasoning to leave the 30 Carbine based 17 Pee Wee behind (he spoke to the inordinate hassle involved in making the Pee Wee case from 30 carbine). Unless his objection was more related to having to ream and neck turn the cases, I just don’t see it.

I’ve got two complete 580 actions sitting here and will be dropping them off to be threaded and get a couple barrels on order with Lilja. I decided to make up one in 17 and one in 20. The guy doing that work has experience threading and rebarreling 541 actions for small bore silhouette shooters. He also does a fair amount of gunsmithing for benchrest shooters. I suspect by the time the barrels show up we should be able to have a couple bolt heads made and ready to go as well as the recoil lugs fabricated.

I’ve got a ZipLoc bag of 580 series and 788 triggers here. Factory triggers and Timneys. I can go either way. Both make up into really nice triggers. The Timney the safety lever needs some reshaping and with the Remingtons there are a couple of routes to go to turn them into a real nice unit. My preference leans toward moving the trigger pivot point and retaining the original single sear/trigger spring. The other option is to drill and tap the trigger housing, use separate trigger and sear springs and add a couple adjustment screws for over travel and sear engagement.

The difficult part of this project will be the two bolt heads.

[johno]

It really is a pity he didn't go for a no neck turn like Calhoon did, and maybe a 28 or 30 degree shoulder

Johno

[georgeld]

You need to consider the tooling he had to make
to do such things back in the 40's or early 50's.
Considered to today's 75 years of experience with
modern equipment. Even the fine paper we have now
hadn't been invented yet. You just can't compare things
we have now to what he had to make and use back then.

I consider what Ackley accomplished was tremendous
doings. He also started the Trinidad Gunsmithing School
at TSJC.

Back about '98 I went into a big new local gunsmithing operation
wanting them to build one for me. "never heard of it", "go ask Bill
this was the very first .17 made and by PO Ackley himself" Bill
went to school at Trinidad too. How in the world could he not know
of it?".
Bill told the guy the very same thing: "I've never heard of it".
Right then I decided I needed to find another shop.

Not long after that foxhunter started a show and tell about his .17 Velociraptor. base on the 5.7x28mm FNH case.

I asked him to send me a dummy round to study.
Turned out to be just what I wanted. Ended up buying his rifle too.

JD I wish you the very best results with that Pee Wee project. Hope it
turns out as expected.

[Bill K]

Often seems too me that people like Ackley and others doing case modification and re-forming set the example for all of us and they did it with equipment less modern than what we have, but they did it easy and in a simple step by step manner. Using their God given talent and created many fine cartridges, that we enjoy to this day.
Also seems to me that now days some just make it hard to do the same things that they did and often make a mountain out of a molehill.
Just saying.

[SmokinJoe]

I have become a fan of the 22 Spitfire which is similar to the 22 Garin, got 3 of them now. I decided to go that way after discovering that JGS had a reamer in stock that had a 28 degree shoulder and Graf & Sons had a Redding FLS made to work with the reamer. The 28 degree shoulder is close enough to Garin's 40 degree that I don't think there is a significant difference. BTW, I originally wanted to go with the Garin but never could get a response from them. Anyway I am now loading brass from Graf and Starline and getting great results using SW SBR SOCOM and either 40 V-Max or tipped Varmageddon @ +/- 3350 fps with no pressure signs and good accuracy. I just lightly anneal new Carbine brass then run it through the FLS and re-anneal.
I think these cartridges based on Carbine brass are a great place to be for our smaller cartridges.

[Bayou City Boy]

Originally Posted by Bill K

Often seems too me that people like Ackley and others doing case modification and re-forming set the example for all of us and they did it with equipment less modern than what we have, but they did it easy and in a simple step by step manner. Using their God given talent and created many fine cartridges, that we enjoy to this day.
Also seems to me that now days some just make it hard to do the same things that they did and often make a mountain out of a molehill.
Just saying.

+1

In addition, the AI concept has been 'bastardized" in the internet years to mean just about any case forming operation that a group of kids with key boards can come up with.

Ackley's concept was simple; create a (usually) 40 degree shoulder straightened (blown out) cartridge case from a parent case by simply fire forming the parent case in a true Ackley Improved chamber with a slightly shorter head space measurement (~about 4 thousandths inch shorter head space) and straighter case walls than the parent case has. The shorter head space allows the case to be formed fully without the worry/concern of creating case head separation on the cartridge.

Nowadays, any time someone goes to create a new cartridge on the internet, it's an "Ackley Improved" this-or-that case. Not necessarily so....... Simply "reaming out" a factory parent case chamber to create a 40 degree more straight case wall chamber and "jamming bullets" and other ideas to overcome an "AI chamber" that is overly long on head space is not a true AI chamber. It's a shortcut to a feux "Ackley Improved" cartridge.

To create a true AI chamber, the solution is simple: the parent case barrel needs to be set back 1-2 threads and then the chamber is re-cut using an AI reamer with the needed shorter head space. Anything less can lead to problems that popular internet solutions don't fully address for all potential users of the rifle down the road.

Case forming is what it is. Some are easy.. some aren't quite as easy........ And I agree with previous posters..... Some do it simply while others turn it into the equivalent of a brain surgeon's final med school exam to get it done.

Simple always works best at my hacienda.......

-BCB

[JDHasty]

I bought the Garin System from another individual here after commenting about wanting to build a 17 Ackley Pee Wee. I am lacking just the 20 Garin reamer and either bought or had everything else to make a pair of rifles in 17 & 20.

The brass really formed easily. Sometimes ya’ never know, some that look easy can really fight you. Sometimes they look like a problem child going in, but turn out easy peasy.

I’ve got a slug of Privi cases, but they are measuring 1.272 to 1.275 on a cases that should be 1.280 to 1.290, the 17 Garin has a less than one caliber neck length anyway. So the brass I have may not be usable. My 580 actions are single shots so I don’t have to be as concerned about that as if I were making up repeaters and trying to feed from a magazine w/o ending up pushing the bullets out of alignment. I may run five through and anneal, ream and turn them so I can seat bullets and give them a look.

Being as 30 carbine cases are frequently under 1.280 why did he not go with a 1.275 oal and work back from that? It just doesn’t make sense to push things so close that if your dream of having some ammo company make factory brass, you leave yourself having to reject most of the availabile cases.