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  #11  
Old 08-20-2019, 10:49 AM
DAA DAA is offline
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Which recipe?

I have a couple gallons of the original recipe. Useful for lots of stuff. But barrel cleaning ain't one of them .

- DAA
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  #12  
Old 08-21-2019, 01:47 PM
flyrod flyrod is offline
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What powder are you using that deposits carbon like that?

I shot a lot of surplus 846 in a 223 bolt action match rifle and noticed I had to clean after every match to maintain accuracy. Looking down the bore (no borescope) I could see crud in the grooves, and I couldn't find any product that would take it out easily. I eventually settled on whatever solvent and a lot of scrubbing with a brush. I've never had a cleaning problem as bad as that before. I suspect the crud was limestone, based on what I read about the M16 problems with that powder. I eventually burned it all up and with a cleaner powder I clean maybe every 500 rounds or so, whenever accuracy seems to drop a bit.

I've had good luck with retumbo and superformance too. The rifles I use those powders in have not been cleaned for a few years and they still shoot well.
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  #13  
Old 08-22-2019, 08:57 AM
Foxhunter223 Foxhunter223 is offline
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Hi DAA,
This is the one I use:

Ed's Red
As a general bore cleaner, plastic wad remover and carbon solvent the following formula, a creation of C.E Harris, and dubbed "Ed's Red" works quite well. In fact many folks claim it is better than anything they've tried. The formula is:
1 part Dexron II, IIe or III Automatic Transmission Fluid - GM Spec D20265 or later
1 part K1 Kerosene
1 part Aliphatic Mineral Spirits federal spec TT-T-2981F (CAS# 64741-49-9) or Stodard Solvent/Varsol
(CAS#8052-41-1)
1 part Acetone (CAS#67-64-1)
Formula Addendum
It has been reported that methyethylketone/MEK (CAS#78-93-3) can be satisfactorily substituted for the acetone if desired.
It has been reported that Turpentine can be satisfactorily substituted for the Mineral Spirits if desired. The original Frankfort Arsenal formula upon which Ed's Red is based used turpentine rather than mineral spirits which were substituted for lower cost.
It has been reported that Kroil penetrating oil can be satisfactorily substituted for the kerosene if desired.
It has been reported that Goo-Gone (a commercial citrus based solvent) can be satisfactorily substituted for the mineral spirits if desired.
It has been reported that commercial automotive "engine flush" can be substituted for the ATF (but you loose the red colour).
For each gallon of Ed's Red produced you can also add 1 pound of anhydrous lanolin (CAS#8006-54-0), which helps to neutralise fingerprints but it's really not necessary. You can also leave out the acetone but then it doesn't remove plastic wad fouling as well. Store in airtight chemical-proof containers as the acetone, if used, will evaporate. Two sources for bulk anhydrous lanolin is http://www.selectoils.com/soaps/lanolin.htm and http://www.thesage.com/ .
According to Ed, "Ed's Red" will flow at -65oF and won't carbonise at 600oF. It has seen use by both the FBI and the Army marksmanship Training Units.
MIXING INSTRUCTIONS
Mix outdoors, in good ventilation. Use a clean 1 gallon metal, or chemical-resistant, heavy gauge PET or PVC plastic container. NFPA approved plastic gasoline storage containers are also OK. Do NOT use high density polyethylene (HDPE), which is breathable, because the acetone will evaporate. The acetone in ER will also attack HDPE in about 6 months, making a heck of a mess! A possible online source for metal 1 pint and 1 quart screw top metal containers suitable for storing Ed's Red is http://www.taxidermy.com/ . This site appears to be some sort of frames based design that does not allow you to link directly to containers, but you can find them via the following site links Products | Moulding and Casting | Containers, Cups and Tools.
Add the ATF first. Use the empty container to measure the other components, so that it is thoroughly rinsed. If you incorporate the lanolin into the mixture, melt it in a hot water bath (lanolin melts at about 107 degrees F), or use a double boiler and avoid exposing to open flames. Pour the melted lanolin it into the larger container, rinsing the lanolin container with the bore cleaner mix, and stirring until it is all dissolved. (It will also, but slowly, dissolve in mineral spirits if you want to avoid using heat.)
You can divert a small quantity, up to 4 ounces per quart of the 50-50 ATF/kerosene mix for use as an "Ed's Red-compatible" gun oil. This can be done without impairing the effectiveness of the mix.


INSTRUCTIONS FOR USING
a) Insure that the firearm is unloaded and that all magazines are removed. Cleaning is most effective when done while the barrel is still warm to the touch from firing. Saturate a cotton patch with Ed's Red, wrap or impale on a jag and push it through the bore from breech to muzzle. The patch should be a snug fit. Let the first patch fall off and do not pull it back into the bore.
b) Wet a second patch, and similarly start it into the bore from the breech, this time scrubbing from the throat area forward in 4-5" strokes and gradually advancing until the patch emerges out the muzzle. Waiting approximately 1 minute to let the bore cleaner soak will improve its action.
c. For pitted, heavily carbon-fouled "rattle battle" guns, leaded revolvers or neglected bores a bronze brush wet with bore cleaner may be used to remove stubborn deposits. This is unnecessary for smooth, target-grade barrels in routine use.
d) Use a final wet patch pushed straight through the bore to flush out loosened residue dissolved by Ed's Red. Let the patch fall off the jag without pulling it back into the bore. If you are finished firing, leaving the bore wet will protect it from rust for up to 30 days. If the lanolin is incorporated into the mixture, it will protect the firearm from rust for up to two years.
e) Wipe spilled Ed's Red from exterior surfaces before storing the gun. While Ed's Red is harmless to blue and nickel finishes, the acetone it contains is harmful to most wood finishes and it could damage some plastics if left in prolonged contact.
f) Before firing again, push two dry patches through the bore and dry the chamber, using a patch wrapped around a suitably sized brush or jag. First shot point of impact usually will not be disturbed by Ed's Red if the bore is cleaned as described.
It has been reported that when Ed's Red is used exclusively and thoroughly, that hot water cleaning is unnecessary after use of Pyrodex or military chlorate primers. However, if bores are not wiped between shots and shots and are heavily caked from black powder fouling, hot water cleaning is recommended first to break up heavy fouling deposits. Water cleaning should be followed by a thorough flush with Ed's Red to prevent after-rusting, which could result from residual moisture. It is ALWAYS good practice to clean twice, two days apart, whenever using chlorate primed ammunition, just to make sure you get the entire residue out.
Thanks to Jim Dodd for the above instructions


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  #14  
Old 08-22-2019, 10:59 AM
DAA DAA is offline
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I'm using a substitution, but I mixed it up so long ago I can't remember which one. For myself, I found it not all that effective at copper removal. But I have used it for many years to clean powder fouled/gunked up gun parts. Keep some in a 1 gallon paint type can originally for carb cleaner, with a basket inside. Can let parts soak in it (with the can sealed).


Quote:
Originally Posted by flyrod View Post
What powder are you using that deposits carbon like that?
That barrel has had a steady diet of N550.

But... So has the 6-284 mentioned in the article that looked like this when pulled out of the safe.




The Rock River AR shown has had quite a few powders used in it. But the majority has been either 748 or Benchmark.

I don't have the experience or data to say with any confidence, but I do suspect that being used suppressed is a factor.

- DAA
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  #15  
Old 08-22-2019, 12:41 PM
ChrisA ChrisA is offline
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I'm dealing with the same carbon issue in a 6.5x47 precision rifle that has 1830 rounds of quick ten shot stages. I can see copper flecks embedded in the carbon fouling and am having the same blue patches with the C4. I assume it's from the copper streaks on the carbon fouling; I'm using a Boretech jag so it's not from that.

I've pussy footed around with Iosso bore paste and JB as I was hesitant to get too aggressive because of all the internet rumors. Guess it's time to get this damn thing clean, I don't have all month for C4.

I should note, I've made some decent headway soaking with Kroil then bronze brushing the heck out of it.

Thanks,

Chris
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  #16  
Old 08-22-2019, 01:18 PM
TinMan TinMan is offline
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Alternating between carbon solvents and copper solvents seems to work the best for me. Alternating, not mixing together, almost always starting with the carbon solvents. Lately I have had great results using straight Kroil as the carbon solvent, dry patch out, then use Montana Xtreme for the copper solvent. Repeat as needed. For really hard carbon, I use JB with Kroil on a patch on a jag.
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  #17  
Old 08-22-2019, 01:47 PM
DAA DAA is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisA View Post
I can see copper flecks embedded in the carbon fouling and am having the same blue patches with the C4. I assume it's from the copper streaks on the carbon fouling; I'm using a Boretech jag so it's not from that.
I've always assumed the C4 turning blue was copper too. And maybe some or most of it is. But seeing it turn blue on the exterior of the muzzle brake where there's only carbon and no copper has me thinking it shows blue for carbon?

- DAA
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  #18  
Old 08-25-2019, 01:23 PM
DAA DAA is offline
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So a few days ago I decided to try and satisfy my curiosity about C4 turning blue on carbon.





Looks like it turns equally blue on either copper or carbon. And does nothing on a clean barrel stub.

- DAA
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  #19  
Old 08-25-2019, 02:00 PM
37L1 37L1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAA View Post
So a few days ago I decided to try and satisfy my curiosity about C4 turning blue on carbon.





Looks like it turns equally blue on either copper or carbon. And does nothing on a clean barrel stub.

- DAA
I read your blog post and really appreciate that you documented what you went through in the barrel cleaning process, thanks for that.

JFYI-

I've used BoreTech Carbon Remover for several years now on several rifles from bolt action to Ar-15 platforms. I either use BoreTech's jags or a polymer jag. I do not get the C-4 turning blue for carbon on any of those rifles I have used it on. Now when I use BoreTech's Copper remover I do get the blue/green color on my patches with the color being dependent on the the rifle and the amount of copper build up that it has.

Curious that your results have it turning blue for the C-4.
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