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Old 06-13-2008, 08:44 PM
paulskvorc paulskvorc is offline
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Default Bigger Bore Stuff

I realize that this is a "small-bore" site, so it is reasonable that most of the converstation revolves around small bore interests. Nonetheless, there a few of us that are interested in something larger than .308", and I'm one. In fact, I'm not much interested in anything smaller than .375" (except .172"), at this point.

To that end, I am trying to get a realistic answer about the effort (force) necessary to swage .510" jacketed bullets, and specifically, the 'reasonableness' of doing it with a "reloading" press. I have a Lachmiller 100 that I intend to make into a dedicated bullet swage IF it is even remotely reasonable. Seems to me that a hydraulic press/jack (particularly an "air-over-hydraulic" jack) linked to the press would "resolve" any force issues, but I have no experience with this so I thought I'd ask here.

I have asked the question of both the Corbins, and frankly, based on other information I've received from them regarding matters about which I DO happen to have first-hand knowledge, I simply don't trust their answers. Before anybody gets their panties in a bunch, I'm NOT calling them liars. Rather, it is that they're answers are simply too 'convenient' and entirely too simple to be realistic... Except of course for those people that have to remember "righty-tighty, lefty loosey" after two or three night's sleep. It has been my experience that good answers come from asking people that aren't trying to sell me something, AND when a broad spectrum of opinions are offered. I would expect that here at Saubier's.

One of the "things" that bothers me about the whole issue of more force for larger diameter, is that as diameter increases, the area of the rear of the bullet increases as a square function. At the same time, the bearing surface also increases as a square function. Unless the length of the bearing surface increases disproportionately, I dont' understand why the pressure (PER SQUARE INCH) required to swage a .22 caliber bullet would be any more than it would be for a .510 caliber bullet. Of course I realize that pounds PER SQUARE INCH is critically important when the butt of a .22 caliber bullet is approximately 0.039 square inches and the butt of a .510 caliber bullet is 0.204 inches (about a 5-fold increase). So if both bullets require 100 PSI to swage, it'll take 5 times the applied force when not standardized to PER QUARE INCH to swage a .510 caliber bullet of similar design to a .22 caliber bullet. Heck, I know a fellow that swages .17 and .22 caliber bullets of pure copper.

I appear to me 'missing' something.

Specifically:
1) Is it even remotely reasonable to attempt to swage jacketed .510" bullets in a hand-operated press?
2) If the answer to quesiton 1 is "No", how large is the upper limit?

Thanks in advance,
Paul
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  #3  
Old 06-14-2008, 05:47 AM
georgeld georgeld is offline
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There's a great long running discussion of this subject on www.castboolits.gunloads.com/swaging.

From what I've read about excessive force is the dies can be damaged, or sides blown out even.

Good luck,
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Old 06-14-2008, 03:40 PM
paulskvorc paulskvorc is offline
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Thanks, George.

Blowing out the dies doesn't seem to be the problem as far as the Corbins go, as they say the same dies are used in the "reloading press" operation as are used their presses - at least until you get ot the bigger production haydraulic presses they offer. I'll check out the discussion above.

Paul
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  #5  
Old 06-19-2008, 02:19 AM
ironhorse ironhorse is offline
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Hi Paul, If you trying to swage 50 BMG bullets I think the problem with a hand press come with the stroke of the press. Most of the power of the press is in the last part of the stroke. .510 BMG bullets are very long and would require a very large hand press I would think. We use RCE hydra-swage presses and if I remember right the preseure gauge reads about 500psi for the 3.5 inch hydrolic ram when we swage a 40 -50 cal rifle bullet. I know there is a way to convert that to actual ram presure but I would need to look for that data.
I hope this helped you out.
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  #6  
Old 06-19-2008, 09:08 PM
george ulrich george ulrich is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ironhorse View Post
Hi Paul, If you trying to swage 50 BMG bullets I think the problem with a hand press come with the stroke of the press. Most of the power of the press is in the last part of the stroke. .510 BMG bullets are very long and would require a very large hand press I would think. We use RCE hydra-swage presses and if I remember right the preseure gauge reads about 500psi for the 3.5 inch hydrolic ram when we swage a 40 -50 cal rifle bullet. I know there is a way to convert that to actual ram presure but I would need to look for that data.
I hope this helped you out.
you are right you could make up some sort of compound linkage to increase initial pressure but you would give up quite a bit of speed. also the further in you move your pivot points in on single stage press you can increase your leverage but you decrease the length of stroke. i have played with this quite abit on the presses we build and other straight reloading types. i would probably go with some sort of air assist. george
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Old 07-05-2008, 04:39 PM
paulskvorc paulskvorc is offline
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My apologies to all that might have thought I was 'snubbing' your responses. I was unaware that Saubier's had an "automatic email notification of responses" feature. I have changed my options, and should know whenever someone provides a response to a post I have made.

That said, I'm not trying to swage .50 BMG bullets, but rather bullets for a .50 Alaskan. I don't suppose it makes much difference, but I suspect my .510s will be a bit shorter than ones for a .50 BMG, and mine certainly aren't going to be boat-tails.

In time that has passed since my last post above, I have acquired an old Lachmiller 100 press. It's a beast, with a 1.25 - 18 receiver and a 1" ram. It's stroke isn't any great shakes, but it does have plenty of leverage (simple, not compound) over its travel. If I can't make it work with 'armstrong' power, I will try the air-assist hydraulic.

Early next week, I should be getting some reamers I just ordered for cutting swaging dies. I've designed a bullet based on Speer's 115-grain .284 and 130-grain HPs. Both those bullets have worked extremely well for me as big game killers. I attribute that to the LARGE, open meplat. We'll see how they work in .51 caliber if I can get the Lachmiller and my dies to produce good bullets.

Thanks again for your responses, and again my apoligies for not repsonding. Hopefully that is a thing of the past.

Paul
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Old 07-06-2008, 04:34 AM
georgeld georgeld is offline
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paul:
I'd be interested in evening out your expense's on those reamers if you'd care to after you're done.

I'm about to get started making a set of lead wire dies for a hyd jack press I've made. Right now I'm still trying to get the newer lathe adjusted to my liking. From the results today, I'm sure not as smart as Ithought I was.

Take care, and welcome to Saubier's.
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  #9  
Old 07-06-2008, 05:06 AM
paulskvorc paulskvorc is offline
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You're welcome to use these if they work out for me, but these reamers only cost about $25 each, so if they work out for what I'm trying to do, you can get your own cheap. As soon as I give them a try, I'll post the results, with pictures if appropriate.

I'm keenly interested in the lead wire extrusion. I look forward to seeing pictures of your setup.

Paul
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  #10  
Old 07-11-2008, 06:30 PM
paulskvorc paulskvorc is offline
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Default Don't tell me I can't...

swage .510" bullets in a reloading press.



This is the first bullet I made from the swaging die I cut - for use in a "regular" reloading press. (I haven't made the swage for the Lachmiller yet.) I am pleased with it. It's a bit heavy at 550, but that's easily remedied. Dave Corbin, and others, have repeatedly told me that it is not possible to swage bullets larger than about .30 caliber on 'regular' reloading presses. When I pressed for reasons, the 'weather' suddenly got hazy. Continued pressing on my part lead to reasons like, "It takes too much pressure" and "The strokes are too short on reloading presses".

Both those justifications may be true for some kinds of swaging operations, but I was very clear - repeatedly - that my needs were simple. Of course "simple" often doesn't sell hardware. I need neither great force, nor a long stroke to make these bullets. The jacket - the forward part of a 'magnum' cartridge case - is nearly pre-formed, and the core is too, as it is simply the Lee 458 Postell 3R cast bullet. Here's a picture of the starting components.



On the left is a .338 Win Mag case. Next is the case with the head parted (I use the rear of the case as a jacket too after turning the belt off), and the neck turned off the shoulder. The forward part is what is used for the jacket in these bullets. In the middle is the Lee .458 3R Postell (507-grains from my mould). I simply insert the Postell into the front of the Mag case, and press into the swaging die.

Of course, I haven't shot them yet, but my previous experiments using the case heads as jackets was very promising. I expect these to do at least as well. Consistency will be necessary for good precision shooting, but I think I can get all the consistency I need in final weight by weighing each 'jacket' and core prior to swaging.

I also like the long nose on these bullets. That turns out to be purely serendipity as it is the profile of the "reamer" I used. That reamer cost me $21.99 (13.90 for the reamer, 6.10 for shipping, and 1.99 for "handling") off EBay. Custom reamer-making shops either said they couldn't make one, or quoted a price of at least $140 (some MUCH higher). The "reamer" is actually a 1/2" "tree burr". Here's a picture of one exactly like what I got. http://cgi.ebay.com/TITAN-1-2-SG-5-D...742.m153.l1262

While the reamer is only 0.500" in maximum diameter, it occurred to me that I could mount it in my tool-holder and offset it the necessary 0.010" to ream the ID I wanted. (Actually I reamed it to 0.515" so I could run the swaged bullet through my .510" Lee bullet sizer for an exact final diameter.) It worked like I knew what I was doin'.

Reaming the die is tedious, as the whole surface of the burr is cutting. In order to make the cavity as smooth as possible, I was only able to advance the burr 0.020" between clearing chips from the cavity and the burr. Since the cavity is 1.5" deep (deep enough to make a 600-grain bullet), that was 75 cuts (1.500"/0.020" = 75).

It wasn't 'easy' to get to this point of actually making bullets, but it wasn't 'hard' either. It just required a hard head. Once the burr was found, the process went like this:

1) Thread a 3" piece of 1" diameter steel rod to 7/8-14 to fit a standard reloading die.
2) Drill a 3/16" pilot hole (later to become the hole through which the bullet is removed from the swage) through the threaded billet.
3) Ream to 1" depth with the burr mounted in the tail-stock.
4) Ream (with 1/2" drill) "shank" to 0.5" deep.
5) Install burr in tool-holder - off-set desired amount for exact diameter.
6) "Cut" (as opposed to "ream", as now the burr is only cutting on one side) into full depth of 1.5".
7) Polish.
8) Make a 'ram' that fits in the reloading die ram, for pressing the unswaged components into the swage.

Making the core should be obvious - it's just a cast bullet. Making the jacket is a bit more complicated, but not too big a deal.
1) Chuck the magnum case (.338, 7mm, .300, etc., any 'standard' magnum case) in the lathe with the head out.
2) Turn off belt.
3) Remove and chuck case in lathe with mouth out.
4) Turn off neck.
5) Part case at predetermined length for specific bullet weight.

At that point, it's just a matter of inserting the nose of the core into the 'jacket', applying a little lube, and pressing into the swage. A tap on the nose through the top hole drops the bullet out of the swage. It pops out at about 0.5145" in diameter. I then run it through the Leee sizing die, and it is 0.5103". Voila'.

And it didn't cost me $2000 dollars, which is what it would have cost me (including shipping) to get Corbin's complete set-up. Of course his equipment might very likely make 'better' bullets. However, if these shoot as straight as the seriously clunky ones I made "by hand" before shot, I'll be happy as a clam.

I'll post a 'photo essay' on the whole process later. It's a bit dificult to work efficiently on a lathe and try to take pictures too - especially if you're a novice.

Paul

PS - I'm not particularly trying to 'pick on' Dave Corbin, and I certainly don't want to offend anyone that uses Corbin gear or that is Dave Corbin's 'friend'. I think he's a pretty good guy - helpful and informative... as long as you do things his way. By the same token, I get annoyed when people won't listen to me describe my needs and ideas, AND when people refuse to "keep it simple". I'm sure Dave Corbin's gear is high-quality stuff that produces high quality bullets. And that's the way he wants it. I'm also quite certain he's not crying about losing my business.
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Last edited by paulskvorc; 07-11-2008 at 06:35 PM.
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