17 (Hornady) Hornet: Spoke with both Hornady & CZ-USA today...

[TOU]

Please do not shoot the messenger on the following...I'm just the messenger and an enthusiast. I just happen to make a few calls and am sharing what I found. I admittedly would also like to make this have a more successful outcome than previous requests.

Okay, so I spoke with CZ-USA today first. I spoke with them about the new 17 Hornet released by Hornady last month. I had spoken to them previously and was told that I was the first to let them know about this offering. I was told that they have had several calls today asking about CZ 527's in 17 Hornet. I asked about the probability about any kind of announcement at the January Shot Show for 2012. I was told that there was ZERO possibility of an announcement for 2012...maybe for 2013...if their is a demand..but not 2012. More on that in a moment.

I then asked why they weren't for 2012. I was told flat out Hornady did not consult with them at all and they had absolutely no advance notice before anyone else including consumers. They had only only been hearing rumors like the rest of us. They were not informed until November 4th like everyone else. If they had, they may have otherwise tried to get some of the plant production time in 2012 for rifles in this cartidge. (I was told though, that their custom house would be happy to build one for me. Been there.) So...no chance in 2012.

As to 2013...sadly this may even be looking a little bit sketchy. The reason I say that is previously (as many of you know), I tried to lead a charge in order to convince CZ-USA to get CZ-UB to FACTORY produce 527's in .20 VarTarg. One of the things I learned in this pursuit was that its nice that a cartridge is SAAMI approved...but that is not enough for European arms manufactures. In the end, as it was explained to me, one of the biggest problems is that in order for CZ-UB to produce a factory rifle & export it it has to also be C.I.P approved. (Maybe wiser folks like MarinePMI can shed additional light on this.) So...the .20 VarTarg is not C.I.P. approved and this takes a serious investment of time and money in order to receive this certification...CZ was not by themselves going to seek this certification. Now...how that applies regarding 17 Hornet by Hornady leads me to my next phone call...to Hornady.

I got to speak to very nice person at Hornady about their new cartridge & I let them know how pleased I was about it. I asked when we would actually see ammo officially? They said it would ship this month. I then asked when they would ship dies? I was told they to would ship this month as well. My next question was when brass would be available and was told it would ship in February. All kind of amazing since there are NO rifles yet.

I then asked when reamer specs would be available and was told...soon. Not sure what that meant but I got distracted with my next question and forgot to follow up on this very important query. My final question was that yes I knew it was SAAMI approved but was it also C.I.P. approved yet? They weren't sure but if I would wait on hold, they would find out. They came back a few minutes later and told me that no it was not yet. I told them why I was asking and the asked WHEN it would be C.I.P. approved? To that, they admitted that they actually had not submitted for approval yet and really were not scheduled to until next summer. I then informed her that the sooner they did the better it would help their sales and success of this long awaited round. Especially considering CZ was one of the premium potential manufactures for this round.

I have to say this surprised and disappointed me with Hornady as they usually seem to have their ducks in a row. I would rather see them have waited longer to release it if it meant having a few more ducks in a row in order to insure the greatest success of the round. (That said they could easily have other things going on that we're not privy to.) They did tell me that they would be happy to share the specs with any rifle manufacture or builders ASAP. I then respectfully provided them with an email address of someone at CZ-USA that was awaiting their contact; especially if they wanted them to produce rifles in this cartridge by 2013...sooner the better. On this note, I encourage all to contact Hornady...regularly and often...to get the C.I.P. certification ASAP. Maybe someone on here can provide us with the best email addy to send request & reminders to??

Okay back to my original call to CZ-USA and producing the 527's in 17 Hornet in 2013. I was told that this would only happen if they had enough "official" demand for it and if C.I.P. approvals were obtained. I asked how much demand was enough and was told they may make a run for as little as 100 pieces. I then asked in what form would they like to see "official" demand or request. I was told by this nice young lady named Alex that it basically didn't exist unless they got letters or emails that they could save & use to document to CZ-UB the request and demand. She then gave me her email address that I could share and post to send "official" request that they produce rifles if this caliber OEM in 2013. Here is the address:

Alex@CZ-usa.com

If you have a serious interest in this round and especially in a rifle by CZ, I suggest that you send them a quick, simple and short request stating as much. Please...please keep these simple, concise and separate from other request. Maybe state the barrel profile etc but do not turn it into a long wish list, critique or political treatise. Make sense?

I hope you do so and that we can make this happen more successfully this time round. That said, I think we have a much better chance of making this happen than we ever did with the .20 VarTarg or even the 17 Fireball. But it is going to take patience and persistance...and C.I.P. approval. But that will likely take care of itself if you take a moment to make these to short and painless request.

Sorry so long and while disappointed I will not have an OEM CZ in 17 Hornet as soon as I'd hoped, I hope you find this as encouraging as I did that it it actually can and will happen.

Cheers,

[218bee]

TOU,

Thank you for all the work you have done. I would also like to see CZ make a rifle in this round. I was doing some internet reading on SAAMI and CIP and I am not sure they are easy to compare. It seems SAAMI consists of members made up of manufacturers who are only bound by their agreement as part of the group. CIP consists of several European countries bound by law to adhere to their testing. I am not a lawyer or versed in such, but it would seem to me Hornady would not be the one to apply for CIP, but someone from the Czech Republic possibly dealing with CZ. Hornady is a member of SAAMI and I would question whether they would be the one to approach CIP. I think contacting CZ with our interest in the 17 Hornet would be the most helpful because I have a feeling it will be up to them to go forward. Just some food for thought.

[Lopili]

TOU,
Many thanks ... I dont think Hornady understands that without a quality manufacturer of rifles ... their cartridge is not an attractive proposition.
Cheers...
Con

[montdoug]

If Hornady is bringing it out I'll bet dollars to doughnut holes someone is chambering it, time will tell but Hornady is a lot smarter than Remington (anyone remember the .22BR?).
I don't think many folks understand what Hornady has already committed to the small caliber shooting world. Also I think people miss what kind of financial commitment and risk is involved in chambering a round in a rifle and producing it. While "most" of the folks on this site think it's a great idea (not even everyone here agrees on that), 95% of the shooting public could care less. In my opinion they don't know what they are missing but that's the way it appears or the .17 Fire Ball would have been a major sales success and it wasn't.
Tough times and people aren't buying like they use to, sure not Hornady or CZ's fault. In fact I'm amazed Hornady would bring out the round now, another reason I'm such a Hornady fan!!! Kudos to Hornady!!!
Just my 2 cents.

[Silverfox]

TOU--Thanks for all the ground work you have done in making the contacts with the various entities. I sent an "official" request to Alex a couple minutes ago.

[william t. oviatt]

I thank you too, TOU! Your intuition is extremely valuable and I hope not lost on CZ.

One thing: If a wildcat cartridge/caliber like the 20 Vartarg and 20 caliber could do so well with no major rifle manufacture and meld into the 204 Ruger offering, why could not a cartridge from Hornady be introduced without a major rifle company on board (for the moment, I dismiss the Model 25 as limited) and let the market catch up! Anyone that comes into close proximity of the 17AH, will fall for its' charms!

Release ammo. Release dies. Release specification for chamber reamers. if you have confidence in the cartridge, you must believe the offerings will show up in rifle manufacturers' products. I can't help but think this rounds offering is a marriage of great value to the current products currently offered by Hornady! An enhancement to what is already "well tuned" products. It (17HH) has the potential to out perform ANY other center fire rifle cartridge they have invested in! It will do well just with those folks that will welcome a standardized cartridge in which to make their next custom rifle, knowing ammo, brass & bullets are readily available from Hornady. It's just possible Hornady believes this, too!
JMHO.
Again TOU, I commend you on your perseverance and willingness to share with us your findings!
Bill

[darrel]

My first hunch would be that T/C might make barrels for it soon but without any specs that won't happen either! Usually they are fairly quick to make these 'odd-ball' calibers for us but who knows now that S&W has control of them?

[TOU]

Thx for the kind words all...just a few phone calls is all.

Originally Posted by 218bee

I was doing some internet reading on SAAMI and CIP and I am not sure they are easy to compare. It seems SAAMI consists of members made up of manufacturers who are only bound by their agreement as part of the group. CIP consists of several European countries bound by law to adhere to their testing.

I am not a lawyer or versed in such, but it would seem to me Hornady would not be the one to apply for CIP, but someone from the Czech Republic possibly dealing with CZ. Hornady is a member of SAAMI and I would question whether they would be the one to approach CIP. I think contacting CZ with our interest in the 17 Hornet would be the most helpful because I have a feeling it will be up to them to go forward. Just some food for thought.

Yeah, I think you have it dead on Bee, & understand it as I do. (I'm no lawyer either nor am I any expert on this.) There is no doubt that CZ or other European manufacture has to be involved to get this done. But...right now, if I understand it correctly, Hornady is the keeper of info and they have to play a part as well. They also need to be communicating it to CZ. THAT is what I am encouraging them to do...as well as us to prompt them.

Of course staying on CZ by providing CZ-USA the "ammo" and backing they need is what we also need to do.

[TOU]

Originally Posted by montdoug

If Hornady is bringing it out I'll bet dollars to doughnut holes someone is chambering it, time will tell but Hornady is a lot smarter than Remington (anyone remember the .22BR?).

Amen Brother...I agree 100%. So far, only Savage has mentioned anything, but even they have proven slow to get it done if the 5.7x28 is any example. We shall see.

I don't think many folks understand what Hornady has already committed to the small caliber shooting world. Also I think people miss what kind of financial commitment and risk is involved in chambering a round in a rifle and producing it. While "most" of the folks on this site think it's a great idea (not even everyone here agrees on that), 95% of the shooting public could care less.

Again, I agree with everything you said and am totally in Hornady's court...if anything above came across otherwise, I apologize. My only apprehension is that I just wished that they had given folks like CZ a bit more advance notice so that they could have got it on the books for 2012. This would have only further helped Hornady and further insured this cartridges success. Like I said above "they could easily have other things going on that we're not privy to."

In my opinion they don't know what they are missing but that's the way it appears or the .17 Fire Ball would have been a major sales success and it wasn't.

No offense intended to anyone, but I am afraid the little darling 17 FB may even get pushed further into obscurity the more successful the 17 HH becomes. Just an opinion though...

Tough times and people aren't buying like they use to, sure not Hornady or CZ's fault. In fact I'm amazed Hornady would bring out the round now, another reason I'm such a Hornady fan!!! Kudos to Hornady!!!
Just my 2 cents.

And a good 2 cents it is. Kudos to Hornady x2!!

[TOU]

Originally Posted by william t. oviatt

why could not a cartridge from Hornady be introduced without a major rifle company on board (for the moment, I dismiss the Model 25 as limited) and let the market catch up! Anyone that comes into close proximity of the 17AH, will fall for its' charms!

I'm sure hoping this is the case and hence my trying to help with grass roots campaign. (Not just here, but other sites as well.) I have convinced no less than than 12 folks (friends, acquaintances and even strangers in LGS's that this is the cats meow. )

Release ammo. Release dies. Release specification for chamber reamers. if you have confidence in the cartridge, you must believe the offerings will show up in rifle manufacturers' products. I can't help but think this rounds offering is a marriage of great value to the current products currently offered by Hornady! An enhancement to what is already "well tuned" products. It (17HH) has the potential to out perform ANY other center fire rifle cartridge they have invested in!

Bill, I think you have volumes of truth and wisdom right there. I think this has the potential to blow away the sales of the 17 Rem, 17 FB & maybe even eventually eclipse the .204R. Heck, I think there may have already been more marketing and advertising than the 17 FB ever got and already nearing what the 17 HM2 got in total.

It will do well just with those folks that will welcome a standardized cartridge in which to make their next custom rifle, knowing ammo, brass & bullets are readily available from Hornady. It's just possible Hornady believes this, too!

Exactly! Finger crossed....