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  #21  
Old 01-28-2017, 01:34 AM
B23 B23 is offline
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[quote=nvreloader;249935]Guys

Sorry guys,
I thought this post was about CFE powder,
My info posted below is for CFE powder only.


Don, Hodgdon now makes three different "CFE" powders that I know of, CFE Pistol, CFE BLK, and CFE 223.
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  #22  
Old 01-28-2017, 02:30 AM
dungheap dungheap is offline
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Per the 2017 Hodgdon Annual Manual, Page 24, CFE BLK has a burning rate similar to IMR 4198, and on their burning rate chart, CFE BLK is the next step slower after IMR 4198. According to Ramshot's burning rate chart, 2200 has a burning rate the same as RL7, and is two steps down the chart from IMR 4198. Hope that helps. I'd say that CFE BLK falls right between IMR 4198 and 2200.
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  #23  
Old 02-09-2017, 09:39 PM
moorepower moorepower is offline
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I was looking at the Hodgdon site on .22H and .22KH and, it looks to be an excellent choice for the 50 grain bullets in both and 40 grain bullet in the K Hornet. In the K with a 50 grain bullet it is getting over 2800 fps with lower psi.
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  #24  
Old 02-13-2017, 05:16 PM
Daryl Daryl is offline
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When 2 powders are really close in burn rate, their positions can switch around depending on ctg., case shape and even bullet weight within a the same ctg. - according to loads, velocities and pressure recordings in the same manual.
When 2 different manuals are concerned, using different rifles or barrels for the data, there can be much larger differences.
I like CFE223 and am sure the CFEBLK would also do well. The Pac-Nor barrel doesn't copper, but the old CZ barrel does pick up a bit after a day's shooting. The CFE powder should help out.
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Last edited by Daryl; 02-13-2017 at 05:20 PM.
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  #25  
Old 02-15-2017, 03:15 AM
BS2 BS2 is offline
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Just picked up a pound. CFE-BLK

But my 17 AH is far from finished.

Looking forward to some testing..........soon!
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  #26  
Old 06-13-2017, 05:38 AM
bburrell bburrell is offline
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I thought that I would resurrect this thread with some feedback on CFE-BLK and my 17 hornet. I loaded up test ammo for my Sav M25 17 Hornet this week. One load was with 1680 (which I have not had good results with in the past) and the other load was with CFE-BLK. I used factory Hornady 20 grain ammo as a standard. I can usually get groups from 0.5 inches to 0.75 inches under favorable conditions. I am really quite a novice reloader and do not have a lot of experience. That said, I prepared five loads with each powder. Each group was a 3 shot group at 100 yards. There was about a 10-12 mph wind with occasional 5 mph wind and gusts to 20 mph. I do not think that the wind accounted for the larger group size on some loads.

With the 1680 I started with 12.0 grains of powder and increased by 0.1 grains to a max load of 12.4 grains. My best load was 12.0 grains and produced a group size of 0.55 inches. I had other groups that measured 0.8, 0.9, 1.15, and 1.4. Not too impressive. I was quite disappointed as so many of you get great groups with 1680.

Next the CFE-BLK loads started at 12.0 grains and increased by 0.2 grains up to a max load of 12.8 grains. My best group was 0.27 inches with 12.8 grains of powder, second was 0.29 inches with 12.2 grains of powder. 12.0 grains/1.19 inches; 12.4 grains/0.90 inches; and 12.6 grains/0.90 inches.

I was surprised that I was getting good group - bad group - good group - bad group. In your experience is this normal? Or, is it more likely attributable to reloading differences or to shooter error? I used an RCBS 10-10 scale to weigh each load as my Hornady electronic scale is too unreliable with 0.1 grain measures. My CFE-BLK 12.6 grain load produced two shots at 0.22 inches and the third shot expanded the group to 0.90 inches. There is a good chance that the flyer was shooter error. I will probably do another test with just 12.6 and 12.8 grains of powder to see if I can reproduce the smaller groups consistently. I did not have access to a chronograph so I can not tell you what FPS each load produced. I guess that will have to come later. Burt

Last edited by bburrell; 06-13-2017 at 05:48 AM.
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  #27  
Old 06-13-2017, 12:54 PM
dungheap dungheap is offline
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[quote=bburrell;256325] ...

I was surprised that I was getting good group - bad group - good group - bad group. In your experience is this normal? Or, is it more likely attributable to reloading differences or to shooter error?

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Good group - bad group: This happens so often it's maddening. If you refer to your favorite loading manual, start with the starting load and work up toward max in small increments I think you will almost always get variations in group size, sometimes large, sometimes small. Throw in all the other variables and the mystery only deepens. More than once I've found a load that shoots incredibly well one day, and on another day it won't.

Coming back to CFE BLK, if you're getting .2 groups from an out of the box Savage 25, thank your lucky stars, tweak your load a little if you wish, and be very, very happy. JMO
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  #28  
Old 06-13-2017, 02:57 PM
bburrell bburrell is offline
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I would be very happy with anything that would be consistent and that would produce a reasonably small group - maybe 0.5 inches + or - a little. About the only thing that I really do consistently is brush my teeth before going to bed. I am mildly optimistic as I produced two small groups out of five. One may be an accident, but two is more like a pattern. Being a novice reloader, I didn't know know if the good group - bad group - good group pattern was a common experience or if it was unique to me and something I was doing wrong.

That Savage M25 is bone stock. I always thought that I would replace it with a CZ but the darn thing has shot so well that I will keep it. It needs some trigger work and I am likely to replace the black plastic stock with a bedded Boyd's stock some day. Until then I will continue to shoot and enjoy. I have too many project rifles to move too quickly on anything. I have a CZ 221 FB that needs a scope ring screw before I can do load development, but I have loaded test ammo in 1680 and BLK for it when I find a $ 0.05 screw. I am sure that I will bed the stock and tweek the trigger on it as well. I put together a 10/22 build last week, and am struggling to find a scope mounting solution for a pristine Winchester 75 target I picked up from an estate. Too many guns, too little time (and money!). Burt
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  #29  
Old 06-13-2017, 05:26 PM
coyotezapper coyotezapper is offline
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BB,

I think there are a few things going on here that are giving you mixed results. The following is my opinion only so take it for what its worth.

1. Savage 25 plastic stock. If you ever want to get good consistent results from a Savage plastic stock you will need to stiffen up the forend and bed the receiver area. I have done this with a couple of Savage stocks with good results. My results showed more group consistency than better groups but the groups did improve. I would be willing to help you through this process. If you don't feel like this is something you can do then I would look at getting a good aftermarket stock. The only Savage plastic stock that I have never touched is a accustock that came on my son's 243. All others have been junk.

2. The 17HH is a small case. .2 increments is a big jump. I think if you were able to start over and do .1 increments you would be able to watch your groups open and tighten up as the powder charge increases. Ideally you want as wide a powder node as you can get but with this small of a case it may only be .2 grains at best but only a chronograph will give you this kind of info. It is possible to read groups but it takes a lot of practice to acquire this skill.

3. You need to remember you are shooting a $500 factory rifle so your expectations for this rifle may be a little high. Savage rifles are decent but they do cut corners to keep the costs down and some of the cut corners result in poor accuracy. If you want a factory rifle that is a tack driver then buy a CZ 527. After the CZ I would recommend a Cooper or just having a custom built. A Cooper or a good custom will pay for itself easily over its life.

4. Powder. I think you are right where you should be with powder choice.
A1680 and CFE Blk from what I have read are just where you want to be for the 17HH so I would not chase a magic powder. There are a couple of other threads on here that talk about this combo so I would study these.
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  #30  
Old 06-13-2017, 06:03 PM
bburrell bburrell is offline
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Coyotezapper, Thank you for your good comments. If I keep the plastic stock, I will probably have my gunsmith work on the stock. If I get a wood stock, I’ll do the same. I am sure that I am capable enough to do the work, but I have too many other commitments (garden, boy scouts, family, work, work, work) to take on another project.

I went up .1 increments with 1680 because the range of charges min to max was so small. I chose to go up .2 increments with CFE-BLK because it had a wider range and I wanted to narrow down my potential loads. I think that I did that and will take your suggestion and load up some 5 shot groups now with 12.6, 12.7, and 12.8 grain loads of CFE-BLK and see what they do. I may give up on 1680 for this rifle and caliber.

I have 7 CZ 527’s in my gun closet so I, like you, am a fan of the CZ and know them to be a quality built rifle. I bought this Savage when the 17 hornet was first announced and the CZ was not yet available in 17 hh. It produced such good groups with factory ammo that I decided to keep it. I think that the biggest improvement to my groups will come with a better trigger. I have ordered two triggers for it from RifleBasix, but apparently they have some problems getting a good trigger for the M25 (Savage design changes). Each trigger did not function properly as the bolt stop did not work on my rifle once the trigger was installed. Both were sent back. I will play around with the accutrigger to see if I can improve on its pull weight and performance. As a side note, I paid less for my most recent new CZ in 221FB than I would have paid for a new Savage M25. Thanks again for your comments. Burt
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