Saubier.com  



Go Back   Saubier.com > Saubier.com Forums > Bullet Making

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old 02-21-2008, 05:20 PM
george ulrich george ulrich is offline
Supporting Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: ill.
Posts: 293
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by georgeld View Post
Pete:
I'd bet those dies and punch's that wear out soon are not properly tempered hard enough, and/or not made of the correct steel.

I've found: Drill rod, baked on a cookie sheet in the oven @ 450 degree's for an hour and a 1/2. Then dumped directly into a bucket of cold water are so hard I can't touch them with a file. The hotter the temp, and colder the water the harder the results. BUT: too much hardness WILL make them brittle. So don't get too carried away and end up breaking them off.

I've made hundreds of punchs, tools, and chisels out of oil field sucker rod and heating with a torch to cherry red then and letting them cool to a red/pink color then quenching. It's a trick, and takes quite a bit of practice to get it right. Too red and it's brittle and edge's will break off. Too yellow and it's soft enough they'll dull. IF you don't get the color all the way thru, or don't quench it completely thru, you'll end up with a hard surface and soft center which is properly call: case hardened. I also temper the heads of the chisels I make so they don't bell over. but, two things here, they must be pale yellow, or else they'll chip. I've had a inch long sliver buried into my brisket once and that was plenty painful. Hard heads will also dent the face of your hammer too. (besides get you into trouble with the wife)

But, this baking in the oven at a controlled temp is new to me and seems to be a much more controlable process. Instructions I got with drill rod was 400 degree's for one hour. Too my notions, that wasn't quite as hard as I like. After that I went a bit more temp and half hour longer. This works swell, maybe even better than a torch with sucker rod too. I tried that awhile back and couldn't touch it with a new file. I've also tried to knock the edge's down turning the bit in a lathe and a new file. I've got a file with several groove's cut down each face to show how hard proper tempering can be. Anything that will cut groove's in the face of a file is dam hard.

IF you get sucker rod from a scrap dealer. It will already be hard and you can't turn it in a lathe, nor mill it either, grinding is the only way to shape any steel that's hard. To soften these steels (anneal) bake them at the same time and temps, and then just let them cool at room temperature. They'll be soft enough to machine when cooled this way. Once all the machining is finished and they are polished, that's the time to temper them. When cooled down after that, just do a final high polish and you'll have it made. When hot steel is dumped into cool/cold water it'll usually turn a dark bronze color at 45-500 degree's. I haven't confirmed this, but, feel that will protect from rusting somewhat. IF it's dumped into oil, any kind of oil, used engine oil even. Watch the smoke and do it outside. But, it'll turn things into a dark blue/black color permanently. But, like gun barrel blue, it will rub off eventually. This will protect from rusting fairly well if you don't get carried away with things.

Steels and annealing work close to opposite of brass. I've had a real hard time getting that thru my hard head. But, it works well too.

Hope this info helps understand things a little bit. This is very brief info about a very technical subject. Metalurgy is a deep thing to get into and takes many yrs to learn very much of it.

The real trick to dies, bore's and tooling that rubs against each other is getting a very high polish on all contact surfaces. 1200, or 2000 grit paper is not out of reason if your goal is a high polish.

Wish you well,
george there seems to be a little misconception here, i know of no tool steels that will harden properly at 400 degsthat's a draw temperature steels need to be over 1000 degrees to reach there critical point to harden then they are drawn back to whatever hardness you need. 1200 or even 2000 grit emery in bullet dies no way its not fine enough i start with 6 micron lapping compound and finish with 1/2 micron . george
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 02-22-2008, 06:17 AM
georgeld georgeld is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Pueblo, CO
Posts: 5,832
Send a message via MSN to georgeld
Default

that's the temps Wholesale Tools gave me on the phone and the pins turned
out file hard. That's drill rod.

I thought it should have been heated red and quenched first but, they said no. Just bake it in the oven so I did and got the results I wanted. They seem to be holding up good so far. No burrs, no bent pins, etc.

Isn't that what we care about most?

Sucker rod steel tempered right won't need an edge put back on until they're abused against something "too hard". Like trying to cut the face of a rail, that will do it. But, drilling several holes in concrete foundation, or rocks will barely take the edge off those. I've never made much with the drill rod yet. I may learn different once I start making other things beside's dies and this set of pins. So far, that's all I've made from it.
Thanks for the comments, you may very well be right. This is the first I've bought and used drill rod.

So far, I've made three sets of bushings to neck case's down. From half inch to .191", polished with 1200 they're "polished good enough for this use". Sure, there's extremes with compound, but, this hasn't been needed on what I've made so far. Maybe for a proper die polishing they 'should be' and I'm just at the starting point.
__________________
George

"Gun Control is NOT about guns,
it's about CONTROL!!"

Last edited by georgeld; 02-22-2008 at 06:20 AM. Reason: needs more
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 02-22-2008, 07:06 PM
george ulrich george ulrich is offline
Supporting Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: ill.
Posts: 293
Default

drill rod is a general name for tool and alloy steels there is a-2,w-1, o-1,d-2, low carb. and so on a file test really isn't telling you much if the file is new i can nick mid 50's r,c. heat treat if it's dull you will get about the same reading as 30 r.c. this is why they have rockwell testers and heat treating ovens this is a little more of an exact science.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 02-24-2008, 05:02 AM
georgeld georgeld is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Pueblo, CO
Posts: 5,832
Send a message via MSN to georgeld
Default

THAT'S also why us back yard shop guys can't afford Exact Science stuff like that too. Way too pricey. How much of that kinda thing do you have at your home shop?

I'm retired on SS and never felt a need to spend that much on those kind of things. Sure NASA and shops have the bucks to buy such tooling and fine abrasive's and such where a guy tinkering out of pocket don't.

I've found over a lifetime of messing with things of all kinds. No matter how good you get, or how fine a polish, or how fine a tools, or shop you have. There's always someone come's along that has more and better. Sounds like this is the case between us.

Wish you well, thanks for the input.
__________________
George

"Gun Control is NOT about guns,
it's about CONTROL!!"
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 02-24-2008, 05:42 PM
george ulrich george ulrich is offline
Supporting Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: ill.
Posts: 293
Default

george not trying to get into a pissing match with you but you are correct after 37yrs. of tool making i agree there are places that have larger budgets, i have worked for some such as us gov. ordanance and smaller shops. this is more about good tool making practices.bullet dies are precision made this includes dies and punches. yes you can probably turn out punches with emory paper but are do you really think you are holding plug fit tolerances on dia. and squarness of faces with out grinding?also dies need to be in the single digit microinches for internal finish otherwise ejection becomes a BIG problem. as for home equipment between my partner and myself yes we do have a heat treating oven but its more cost effective to send out. heat treating is minimal by lot charge and parts are right where you call out on hardness. if it matters we also have od grinders, surface grinders, lathes, mills,saws, and measuring equip. down to .00001 and yes the 0's are correct. george
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 02-29-2008, 07:17 AM
georgeld georgeld is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Pueblo, CO
Posts: 5,832
Send a message via MSN to georgeld
Default

George U:
No, I'm not claiming perfection.
I am claiming and saying: The 1000grit is GOOD ENOUGH for bullets to plink,
and shoot pr/dogs with. That's my goal, not perfection.

Take care, wish you the best.
__________________
George

"Gun Control is NOT about guns,
it's about CONTROL!!"
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 03-04-2008, 07:56 AM
Foxhunter223 Foxhunter223 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Coffs Harbour, Australia
Posts: 616
Default J4

George,
We have not thought about using a draw die as we were unaware that a die like that existed. I will run this by my bullet making mate and see what he thinks about investing in one. I imagine Neimie would make one for us if we asked him.
Thanks for the new idea.
Pete
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 03-05-2008, 07:06 AM
georgeld georgeld is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Pueblo, CO
Posts: 5,832
Send a message via MSN to georgeld
Default

Pete:
Believe George U is confusing us a bit with his usage of the proper term: draw die. Actually I believe that's the same thing as a sizer die like Lee makes for sizing cast bullets. works the same, shrinks whatever is pushed thru them to the size it's bored at.

Also Pete, I've got some stuff here for steve. IF there's anything over here you'd like to get. Would be a good time to share shipping costs.

Also, he's been talking about the many buckets of .22lr's they have around the farm. Be great if you guys could/would join up and get bullet making dies and get into the business. Seems like there's a great need for such in your parts.

On: www.castboolits.gunloads.com/swaging. Thor has a .25 cal bullet that looks mighty fine stuffed into a .22lr jacket. No kidding, check it out.
__________________
George

"Gun Control is NOT about guns,
it's about CONTROL!!"
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 03-05-2008, 04:38 PM
george ulrich george ulrich is offline
Supporting Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: ill.
Posts: 293
Default

george, theres nothing confusing about this a draw die is used to reduce the dia. in this case we are talking about the for mentioned jackets that are oversized but available to him in australia. these die's have been around for at least 50 yrs that i know being i have an original b&a from the 55-57 era. george
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 11:51 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.