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  #11  
Old 06-02-2021, 02:31 AM
Bayou City Boy Bayou City Boy is offline
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Originally Posted by ray h View Post
I've read this several times and each time my head hurts. You need a set of Neil Jones bushing. Sure would make your life easier.
Neal Jones is indeed a great arthritis doctor for old men who crank reloading press handles a bunch....

-BCB
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  #12  
Old 06-02-2021, 02:38 AM
Oso Polaris Oso Polaris is offline
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Originally Posted by ray h View Post
I've read this several times and each time my head hurts. You need a set of Neil Jones bushing. Sure would make your life easier.
I guess I should give some background. I'm in Texas where the most frequently shot varmint in farm field has tusks and weighs 80lbs - 250lbs. My shooting range (5 miles away) allows me to shoot 1,000 yards. Around here, a small caliber wildcat is a 223AI or 300BO... not kidding.

Edit: BCB gets credit for educating me on fact the PD's live in Texas, just really far north. Same commute to get to the PD's as to get to fresh begniets in New Orleans.

I took a leap of faith on a 20 Vartarg, and then doubled down on a 17-222... I know that sounds crazy. When I bought the rifle I didn't have any hands on experience or know anyone that could give guidance. Otherwise, buying a set of Neil Jones bushings or Bullberry dies would have been the ticket. Instead, I tracked down a set of 17-222 RCBS Reloading Dies and set of Forming Dies. I have tried to work these vintage dies (circa 1968-1970) into the process... it just feels right.

I could make do with just the Redding 222 Type-S FL Bushing Die and have an assortment of bushings to accomplish the intermediate reduction steps. I may use the next wildcat project as a convenient excuse to buy some custom forming dies.

Last edited by Oso Polaris; 06-02-2021 at 02:43 AM.
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  #13  
Old 06-08-2021, 04:59 AM
Oso Polaris Oso Polaris is offline
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I received in the .212 bushing a couple of days ago. Now the majority of my forming steps for my 17-222 will be accomplished with the Redding Type-S FL Sizing Die (222 Remington). The case reduction from the RCBS Form Die (.224") to the RCBS Trim Die (.202") was just to large and hard on the cases. The .212" bushing provides a nice intermediate step down. The results are noticeable easier with the brass being much smoother.

The intermediate reduction from 222 Rem Redding FL Die (.228 bushing) to the 17-222 RCBS Form Die (.224) continues to be surprisingly the most difficult step. Although the amount of reduction is not significant (.004"), it required 2-3 strong handle pulls/back-offs before fully seating. The only explanation that I can think is that this particular step using the 17-222 Form Die completely sizes the entire neck all the way to the shoulder. Whereas, the Redding FL Bushing Die has a small transition area at base of neck that doesn't get resized by the bushing. Although not a large section, cramming back this small amount of neck to get a uniform neck and consistent shoulder must be the culprit.

I happened to have a .200 Bushing and decided to do a comparison of case forming using the RCBS Trim Die versus 222 Rem Redding Die (.200 bushing). The RCBS Trim Die smoothed out the shoulder radius and provided a gentler transition (slight curve) at the neck/shoulder junction. Whereas, the 222 Rem Bushing die created a sharp angle at the shoulder/neck intersection. Trim Die is the winner for better product.

After reading about concerns of collapsed necks during forming and when/if to anneal cases, I decided to do a little informal testing to see what worked best for my process. I altered the amount of annealing to the donor .223/5.56 brass (each sample group contained 10 cases):

1) Once-Fired Brass with No Anneal.
Rockchucker groaned hard during every step. Heavy force to work the ram. Shoulders were not smooth and showed signs of stress.

2) Once-Fired Brass with Light Anneal to just below shoulder/body intersection.
Rockchucker only groaned slightly. Shoulders looked better with smooth metal.

3) Once-Fired Brass with Medium Anneal that appeared slightly less than factory (down 1/4 of case body).
Huge improvement with noticeably better formed cases and less strain on press operations.

4) New LC Brass (factory anneal).
Amount of force to function press was significantly less and still a noticeable reduction as compared the #3. It is as smooth as butter in comparison to above three.

There were no signs of potential shoulder collapse during my process with any of the 4 groups of brass. Going forward, all donor brass will get a deep anneal before starting the forming process.

Last edited by Oso Polaris; 06-30-2021 at 03:41 PM.
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  #14  
Old 06-08-2021, 05:14 AM
Oso Polaris Oso Polaris is offline
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My formed cases (pre-trim) are coming out at 1.785"-1.800", with my chamber at 1.686".

I planned to use the mini-chop saw and 300BO case cutting jig, but the rough cut length of 1.688" is outside of the existing cutting zone on the jig. I didn't want to mess with machining the jig.... in my wood shop this mean putting on a older saw blade and trimming aluminum on table saw. Sorry - no end mill in my shop.

I decided to first try the Lee trimmer... no go case to short for the 223 die body. I brought out the .223 WFT and set it up for a cut of 1.687" give or take a thousandth. The WFT is great, but boy does it suck to trim off a 1/10". It was slow going and my fingers are worn out from gripping the cases. I should have just bit the bullet and even pulled out a metal file to remove the excess metal blocking the mini-saw blade. Live and learn.

Final trim and chamfer will be with the 21st Century 3-way trimmer.
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  #15  
Old 06-08-2021, 09:45 AM
Kevin Gullette Kevin Gullette is offline
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Exclamation A word of caution......

First.....you're starting out with "once-fired" 223 brass.....correct??

This is NOT good.........given that you're going through all of these operations to "fit" a 17-222 chamber precisely.

Unless you know, for a FACT, that the "once-fired" chamber base(datum) diameter is EQUAL TO OR LESS(measured to 0.0001") than the chamber in your 17-222..........you may end up with mild to severe "bolt-click" problems.

Once swelled.....a case will try to return to that same "swelled" diameter, even if FL resized(even SB resized)....for later use in a different chamber. One could call it "brass memory".

Bottom line....I always try to start out with VIRGIN/unfired brass. I even sort my new brass by neck-wall thickness runout(T.I.R.), in tenths(0.0001"). But that's just me/my method/habit.

Hope this helps.

Kevin
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  #16  
Old 06-08-2021, 04:19 PM
Oso Polaris Oso Polaris is offline
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Kevin,

thanks for feedback. I agree - virgin .223 is the way to go. I thought I would practice/perfect my skills and case forming procedure before breaking out my stash of Lapua brass. The datum line isn't an issue on the .223/5.56 brass since I am significantly pushing back the shoulder to the .222 Remington zip code before the neck reduction process down to .17 cal..

I have a Large amount surplus once-fired brass from shooting 3-Gun. I have been extremely selective with these spent cases that I am using for practice... maybe 1 out of 10 made the cut. In short a lot of wasted time, but good learning curve identifying issues and their resulting impact on a formed case.

If I weren't pregnant with Dies and there wasn't a national panic/shortage, maybe I would rethink my process and order some custom forming dies. Making do and getting creative is the fun part of panic/shortage.

Last edited by Oso Polaris; 06-08-2021 at 04:21 PM.
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  #17  
Old 06-09-2021, 03:40 AM
Kevin Gullette Kevin Gullette is offline
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Default Note.........

The "datum" line, I'm refering to, is at the rear area of the case( approximately 0.2" forward of the base)....not the front.

Kevin
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  #18  
Old 06-09-2021, 05:59 AM
Oso Polaris Oso Polaris is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Gullette View Post
The "datum" line, I'm refering to, is at the rear area of the case( approximately 0.2" forward of the base)....not the front.

Kevin
Gotcha. My case prep for the donor brass is that it is first wet tumbled, and then resized with .223 FL sizing die, swaged, and finally run through a Wilson case gage to ensure that each case meets spec. Only after this is completed is the brass even considered for any type of usage.
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  #19  
Old 06-09-2021, 06:57 AM
Kevin Gullette Kevin Gullette is offline
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Lightbulb But..........

Casehead expansion memory cannot be "sized" out of the brass.....or it's tendency to try to return to it's widest expansion with subsequent firings.

As I said:

"Unless you know, for a FACT, that the "once-fired" chamber base(datum) diameter is EQUAL TO OR LESS(measured to 0.0001") than the chamber in your 17-222..........you may end up with mild to severe "bolt-click" problems."

The actual chamber base dimensional differences are the key.

"bolt-click" has been discussed a few times over on benchrest dot com .

Kevin
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  #20  
Old 06-09-2021, 01:49 PM
Bill K Bill K is offline
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Seems like a lot of you fellows make a mountain out of a molehill with resizing brass to make various cartridges.
With the proper dies/tools it is actually a very simple process and thousands have been doing it for years and playing with all kinds of wildcat and standard cartridges.
And being somewhat time consuming, at times, the fall/winter months when we are through hunting seasons and cold/wet weather and in the house more, is a fine time to work on some of that process and have brass ready for the next year.
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