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  #21  
Old 03-19-2019, 08:25 PM
JSH JSH is offline
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I have some of the same brass but mine came from Grafs. I am very happy with mine. OAL is good for the 200 I checked. Mouths are all square and no burrs, I would swear they were all just lightly trimmed by me.

What I see looks to be a soot line maybe 3/8-1/2” above the rim. Hard to tell with out them in hand.

I fear some case stretch. You did mention above the case was basically flopping around in the chamber and were surprised they fired. That is why I use a false shoulder/slight crush fit. Others use a light jam, then some neck up on caliber and then back down till the bolt will just close with slight resistance.

I have a very slight crush and have to bottom out my die on the shell holder to get it to close. Actually have to bump the shoulder on the 223 brass to get it to chamber, that happens very seldom at least for me. Looking forward to my project, Acra glass is drying as we speak. Three days more of curing. Hope this weekend is nice.
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  #22  
Old 03-19-2019, 10:11 PM
Oso Polaris Oso Polaris is offline
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When I first received the brass I contemplated posting some pictures and asking for comments about the brass to see if anyone else had similar experience...full circle. I purchased 2,000 cases, which came in eight plastic bags of 250 rounds. Each bag had its production lot number from Lake City and they all matched. I noticed some minor variances to the exterior condition of the cases in different bags. I had a bunch that had a small group of 2-3 small scratches that appeared as series of rings around the entire case. Also, I had cases that had a dulled ring around lower portions of the case.

The first photo of some of the new cases (not yet fired). You will note the soot lines, scratches, and dulled ring near the base on the cases.... Case 1 & 4 show the scratch lines circumnavigating the case. Case 2, 3 & 5 show dulled ring at base. Case 6,7, & 8 show the soot line at base.


The second photo is of cases that were fire-formed using 80% Method (Cream of Wheat). As some other members have indicated using this method there isn't enough powder or pressure to cause case separation. The marks that you are seeing on the outside of the case were there from the factory (pre-existing). After the initial failures and case separation issues that I had early on with other ammo I made certain to pay plenty of attention to each individual case before and after shooting it. Cases 1, 3, &4 show the dull ring at the base. Case 2, 5, & 6 show the concentric scratch rings. Case 5 & 7 show the soot line.


Summary - If I had discovered either the soot ring or dull band toward bottom of case after fire-forming then I would immediately assume Case Separation. However, since these marks were pre-existing from factory on virgin, new brass then they are simply superficial marring that will clean up after first tumble. All that said, I have picked up range brass from AR15's that showed less markings....PITA.

Last edited by Oso Polaris; 03-19-2019 at 10:19 PM.
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  #23  
Old 03-20-2019, 01:02 AM
GrocMax GrocMax is offline
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Tried this (filler/pistol powder) several times, gave up. Too messy, too much BS.

Now if you shoot competition,and have a dedicated fireforming barrel, I can see the light.

Colony varminting, hell no, find a fireforming load that has good accuracy under normal conditions.
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  #24  
Old 03-20-2019, 06:34 AM
Daryl Daryl is offline
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If the chamber has not been reamed properly for the imp CASE, as in headspacing on the junction of the neck and shoulder,
necking the cases up to .243 or .257, then down to where they "just" chamber will give a perfectly formed case with a normal load.

There is no need to reduce the load or shoot any other form of fireforming load, a moderate to normal high-end load will do just fine.
The result is perfectly formed cases with zero screwing around.

This shows the process of necking up the parent case as well as moving a shoulder forward .019" due to excessive headspace. I necked the case straight instead of just up a couple calibres.



This shows the process of necking up as well as forming an IMP case from the original standard case, except I necked the case straight instead of just up a couple calibres.

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Last edited by Daryl; 03-20-2019 at 06:40 AM.
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  #25  
Old 03-20-2019, 01:15 PM
Oso Polaris Oso Polaris is offline
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Daryl,

Thank you for the photos of your necking up process in preparation for fire-forming! Nice layout of the intermediate steps forming the new neck. What cartridge are you making?

Of the 300 cases from the new LC brass that I fire-formed using a live round (Direct Method), I only had a handful that didn't properly form the shoulder area. It looks like the original shoulder must have been short enough that no crush fit was formed. This seems weird because all of the other cases fire-formed just fine and in theory all came from the same production line....
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  #26  
Old 03-20-2019, 01:59 PM
Bill K Bill K is offline
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One thing that can come into play, even though a case is annealed or of the same batch, is the simple fact that the makeup of each case is not exactly the same, so a few being, say harder, just don't form fully as the majority of other do or did. A person can anneal those few more and make another run at forming them or just side line them. This is or can just be a fact of the metal make up of those few cases and something we live with. Bill K
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  #27  
Old 03-20-2019, 05:33 PM
Daryl Daryl is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oso Polaris View Post
Daryl,

Thank you for the photos of your necking up process in preparation for fire-forming! Nice layout of the intermediate steps forming the new neck. What cartridge are you making?

Of the 300 cases from the new LC brass that I fire-formed using a live round (Direct Method), I only had a handful that didn't properly form the shoulder area. It looks like the original shoulder must have been short enough that no crush fit was formed. This seems weird because all of the other cases fire-formed just fine and in theory all came from the same production line....
Oft times, someone will simply run an improved reamer into a chamber, instead of removing the barrel, setting the barrel back at least .010" or 1 full turn, then chambering to get a crush fit on a standard case's neck/shoulder junction. If done properly, you can simply fire standard ammo and they will headspace properly and form to the IMP chamber.

Without that, there exists excessive headspace in the 'new' chamber and the neck should be expanded larger than the calibre, then necked for a crush fit as I showed in my photos.
I should explain the photos.
In the first one, with the excessive headspace of .019", I took a new 8x57 case & simply necked it up to 9.3x57, just to show what that simply step looked like & the length of the neck. This case body is .019" shorter than the chamber in the rifle.
The third case, is the same 8x57 case necked pretty much straight in 1 pass.
The 4th picture is that case necked in the die for a crush fit and looks almost identical to a fired case in this rifle. Note the neck length, compared to the #2 case in the picture. That .019" difference IS visible.

The second picture of mine, 1st case is a 30/06 case. Second is a .30/06 or .35 Whelen case necked up to .45" in one pass. The third case has been necked to hold a .375" bullet and is a crush fit in the chamber.
The 4th case has been fireformed. 5th fully formed case loaded with a 270gr. TTSX at 2,650fps (4,211fpe) and the 5th case is a formed case loaded with a 300gr. Interbond at 2,470fps 94,065fpe). The ctg. an Arch-style .30/06IMP having a .460" shoulder, not the normal .454" as in Ackley Chambers.
Fro fireforming as would be loaded in the 3rd case, I used 225gr. .375 Spire Points, loaded to 2,845fps. That is a maximum load and delivers a vel., of 2,865fps in formed brass making 4,102fpe for an IMP '06 case - not too shabby.

I should also note, I have never lost a case when fireforming using this method. The cases fit the chamber perfectly BEFORE being fire formed.

I will also not, that using a tapered expander for the 8x57 cases necked out straight with new brass- no losses in 300 case thus done.

With the .375/'06IMP I used a lot of old oft-reloaded .06 cases. In necking them straight, without annealing first, I lost 1, sometimes 2 in 10 necking them straight. As I initially had a couple hundred, I did not mourn the loss - they were old dirty cases to start with. If the split, I tossed them, if they didn't they went into the box.

I did this with my first .375/'06Ackley IMP in early 1981/2 and again with my new one in about 2002/3. I did buy some .35 Whelen brass and used that as well in my Arch chambering.

All of my 1st .375/06 Ack.IMP brass(.454"neck), got necked (necking die) to hold a 9.3x62 bullet(crush fit) and was fireformed for my then new to me (1982) 9.3x62 Obernorf Mauser. The only difference in those two (.375/06IMP and 9.3x62) was the shoulder angle.

My new .375/'06IMP has a slightly higher case capacity - 80gr. in WW brass.
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Last edited by Daryl; 03-20-2019 at 05:40 PM.
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  #28  
Old 03-21-2019, 01:56 AM
Bayou City Boy Bayou City Boy is offline
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Whew.........!!

I'm glad that AI'ing a cartridge was never this tough when I was doing it. After reading all of this and looking at the pictures, I have to think that Daryl might be right on cue with the chamber issue and how the AI chambers were created.

JMO - BCB
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  #29  
Old 03-21-2019, 09:01 PM
Daryl Daryl is offline
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I like to have a good, hard, crush fit on chambering the ctg. to be fireformed. I know some guys simply seat a bullet out - I prefer to make my cases perfectly fit the chamber before they are fired, even once.
Some of the guys who bought the 9.3x57's, found, as I did, they had VERY sloppy headspace. This should NEVER happen with a Euro. ctg. as the CIP rules for ctgs., headspace, pressures, etc are LAW, not merely guidelines like SAAMI is in the states.
The reason for so the 9.3x57's are not governed by the law, is at the time of it's inception, it escaped being entered, for some unknown reason, thus escaping the CIP laws - the 9.3x57 is not listed in the CIP ctg. lists.
It is listed on some loading or pressure charges, such as http://kwk.us/pressures.html but that is only due to their listing of Norma ammo and the pressures Norma chose for their factory ammo, which was 38,000 copper units pressure and 44,000psi on the pezio method.
The same rifles chambered for this ctg. are also chambered for the 6.5x55 at 55,000psi, and the the 8x57 and 9.3x62, both at 57,000psi. Some were also built and chambered for the .30/06, a 60,000psi - yes - model 96/94's. Go figure.
What the lads found with these overly long chambered 9.,3x57's, is that if simply necked up, loaded and fired with the exceedingly low loads they were using, 286gr. at 1,800-1,900fps(factory Norma 2,050fps) that the primers were backed out 1/2 way and sometimes over with really sloppy chambers. They noted in the forum on (Gunboards)Swedish Rifles, that on subsequent reloads, the primers backed out less and less, then the case had the shiny ring of an incipient head separation. They were getting 3 or 4 reloads and that was it before the cases split.
I chose not to have that happen, thus expanded the cases straight then necked down again. It was an easy choice and fast.
Thus, on the initial loading, it took me 3 operations. Neck straight in one pass, FL size, powder, primer then seat the bullet.
After that, I just made sure I did not touch the shoulder - never have I had to 'bump' a shoulder - on any round.
I always partial fl sizing most of the neck, or neck size only depending on the dies I have for that round. I have 42 sets of FL dies by count, with only a couple ctgs. also having neck sizing dies.
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  #30  
Old 03-22-2019, 12:14 AM
Bayou City Boy Bayou City Boy is offline
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Right on, Daryl............

If you don't have a snug or tight fit on the cartridge in the chamber that you are AI'ing, you're not going to form anything but stretched brass.

For me, from experience years ago when I was young and impressionable, seating bullets out long does not achieve a snug cartridge fit in the chamber. In addition, I've never seen a need to form a false shoulder on a cartridge to AI it. If I had to do that, I'd immediately question the chamber head space length.

A false shoulder is for forming one cartridge from another. An example, was when the 204 Ruger hit the market. I bought a rifle before I could get ammunition or brass, so I made 204 Ruger cases from 222 Rem Mag cases using a false .224" shoulder on the partially necked down 20 caliber case neck to get a firm fit on the cartridges in the 204 Ruger chamber.

-BCB
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